Exploring Intercultural Resilience and Joy with Monika Guzak

[00:00:03] Hi, I'm Dr. Russell Thackeray and welcome to Resilience Unravelled, a podcast with new ideas, new thoughts and new thinking about resilience. Guests with remarkable stories, products and services that can really power up your own mindset and resilience. You can also go to our site for more information, to ask questions or to access some of our resources at resilienceunravelled.com. Let's get started.

[00:00:32] Hi and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled. It's almost my joy to interview and meet different people from all the way around the world and hear different accents and voices. And it's a really interesting accent tonight because we're talking to someone who I think hails originally from the east of Europe. So I'm going to welcome Monika Guzak to the podcast and she's going to tell us where in the world she is. Hello and thank you so much for inviting me to your podcast.

[00:01:03] So I'm based in Poland and West Poland. So we always believe that we are in Central Europe still. Oh, do you really? Yes, really. And you know, this is how we... I don't know which side's the west. The west is on the right hand side, isn't it? Exactly. However, I was living in seven different countries and I'm sharing my life between Poland and Portugal. So yeah, today I'm connecting from Poland.

[00:01:26] Well, all we can say is we stand with the Polish people and you do magnificent work at the moment and all that you do in that part of the world. Well, first of all, Monika, you better tell us a little bit about yourself. So I'm intercultural business trainer. I'm also coach, which as I would say, like my mission is to bring more joy and resilience through diversity as well to business.

[00:01:51] So embracing our cultural heritage and as well taking and learning from different generations. Okay, fantastic. Well, I like everything you've just said there, especially different generations. So talk to me a bit more about the work that you do. So you're a coach, you say, and you talk about diversity. So what do you mean by that? Yeah, by diversity, I mean influence on business, on our daily life through where we're coming from.

[00:02:19] And this is what I also said, general diversity. I'm also a researcher at Poznan University of Economics and Business. So I love to study this topic. I love to experience this topic because my background is, of course, in business. And then I find out that I don't understand some processes. So then I jump a little bit to academia to search, you know, what is really going on.

[00:02:43] And now as well from other side, I can support leaders and organizations to build more resilient and I would say empathetic organizations and cultures. That's interesting. So just think of the diversity side, because at the moment it's not a very popular subject, isn't it? It's getting wound down in lots of organizations. Have you a view on why it seems to have lost its punch is the word, I suppose? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:12] I would say that in our area, you know, so also like from some European and Central European, it's very, I would say, hot topic still. We are learning about, you know, what it's what we can take from each other. And I would even much more say that we don't use that much word, you know, like diversity, resilience. This is a new word.

[00:03:37] I would say that we just try to see human by human who we are and looking from this individualistic perspective.

[00:04:12] Yeah.

[00:04:13] So I would say that we naturally are very resilient.

[00:04:43] And I think that we are very resilient to all challenges. And even it showed pandemic war in Ukraine, because of course, Poland was and still is influenced by the fear, which is, you know, in society. And as well, inflation and so on and so on. So I would say that naturally, yes, we do. And I believe that it has impact because I see, you know, living also in different parts of the world.

[00:05:11] So, of course, depending how we understand resilience, if it's just, you know, bouncing back or is this also, you know, parts of access to your emotions and so on, because this is something what we are learning. We are learning to be proud of ourselves. We are learning to openly speak about what we are good at. It's not only about, you know, being able to fight and achieve and exactly bouncing back after some difficulties. Yes. I mean, that's the bit that people forget, isn't it?

[00:05:41] Where there's two sides to resilience. One, which is bouncing back, as you say, or bouncing forward, as we call it. But the other thing is this side of, you know, how you live life and face challenges. And part of that is we spend too long, I think, seeing our successes as being luck. And we spend too much time seeing, you know, over-attributing failure to ourselves. And this is, you know, Seligman's idea of learned helplessness and such like.

[00:06:08] And this idea of celebrating who we are and what we stand for is really important, isn't it? Because, and I wonder if quite a lot of Europeans are quite buttoned up in that sense. We don't celebrate. We're not proud enough. We're proud of the oddest things. And especially in Britain, you know, we're quite sort of acerbic about our own triumphs. We sort of revel in what we did 75, 80, 100 years ago. No one seems to think that we've actually got a really great country. We live in a great place.

[00:06:35] And we have these massive freedoms which are being eroded because we don't fight for them. And I think that's the point about your past, isn't it? When you fought for your own democracy, you tend to value it a bit more. And that gives you something to stand behind and celebrate, doesn't it? Yes, and no, I would say from our perspective, because, yeah, this is something what we are fighting, fighting for. But on the other hand, it's something what, you know, we always were in this mode of fighting.

[00:07:03] So we don't really celebrate daily life. And I would say that nowadays we are in the moment we start really appreciating our own country, seeing that we have a really well-developed, you know, economy, that Poland is a really beautiful country. Even for me, you know, living almost 10 years abroad and then coming back. And at the beginning, I was like, I don't want to be here. Like, I want to be in another place.

[00:07:30] And after that, I was realizing, like, wow, I have here everything. So I would say that this is something what we are learning from the society perspective. And we are also really learning what means celebrating life to not to work hard. Because, you know, if you are growing up in a post-communist country, then the only thing which you might remember is that there is nothing in a shop that you need to kill, you know.

[00:07:58] So then we didn't have access to a lot of goods, which probably you had. And that's why I would say that now it's the moment, last few years, where we really start seeing value of where we are, what we have around us. So we don't need to just rush in our achievements and not having time to appreciate them. But now as well, like, sit and say, like, wow, I have a really good life.

[00:08:26] But it's not just about what we have, possessions and material stuff. It's that freedom of thought, isn't it? Oh, definitely. That's the key, isn't it? It's this idea that you and I can have this conversation without somebody listening in or judging or censoring things that we can and can't say. Okay. And those freedoms are hard fought for and easily lost as well. And I think we're seeing that in different parts of the world. You know, you look at people whose spirit is being crushed because of the sort of political regime they're under.

[00:08:54] We have to look after these things. So, yes, it's interesting, isn't it? But I know you talk more about joy than resilience in your world. So talk to me a little bit about the joy work. Yeah. Yeah. So after a lot of years of just really rushing and seeing the resilience as a fight and that we need to do a lot of, you know, to have, to feel, to be and so on,

[00:09:21] I would love to bring as well more joy and playfulness to organizations. And I'm also using Lego series play, art to therapy, you know, tools where through going to unconscious mind, we can discover what we really want, what people are driven. And I'm also a Jungian coach. So, you know, what are our shadows, which sometimes are blocking us and as well, what is in the light.

[00:09:49] So what we should, you know, do more or be more, because this is also about doing and being. And this joy of small things even around us, I would say it's very crucial because this is what is bringing us. I'm calling it inner fire so that every day we have energy to wake up and smile and do what we want to do. There may be some people out there who don't know about the Lego thing. So do you want to tell us a bit about that? Definitely.

[00:10:19] It's super cool. I would believe that, you know, most of us have ever used some Lego. And through Lego, you can just build wherever is the topic of the workshop, of coaching and so on. So you use your hands to think. So you don't use your conscious mind and telling, you know, answering questions, for example, you can build. So I'm always saying that you can build your success, your happiness, wherever it is.

[00:10:48] And then through questions and noticing that maybe some colors mean something or maybe what you build, it has some deeper meaning. We can really find out what it's needed in your life or in organizations. So you can use Lego not only for individual work, but as well to build a strategy to see stakeholders and what they need, what are the connections.

[00:11:14] So it's really, I would say, powerful tool, which allows us to see, I would say, topics more wider. Not only from this very conscious way that we calculate everything and using the Excel templates and so on. Yes. And it's sort of the power of metaphor is really important there, isn't it? And yeah, it's interesting. So you talked earlier about the light side and the dark side. So what did you mean by that?

[00:11:41] I mean that a lot of people focus only, you know, on how to be, I don't know, more bold or how to be more assertive and so on. But they don't see that sometimes through these behaviors, they are also, you know, stuck in something, some different areas.

[00:11:59] So let's say, even from my two-day coaching session, one board member said that he can control his emotions, you know, in front of his team, for example. But then when his colleague from Italy is calling, then, you know, all emotions are, you know, floating, I would say, in the room, which is not good. He said that it costs him a lot of energy because they together open up each other's.

[00:12:28] So I would say that each of us, we have some shadows, which, you know, sometimes exactly we are trying to control and having poker face. And then, you know, we are putting some needles to other people. Or the same if we want to, we're doing some things, let's say, always trying to be perfect. But then the cost is somewhere else. We try to take a lot of decisions, but we feel that we can't.

[00:12:53] So it means that we need also look in the shadows because maybe there is some, you know, I would say innocent or any other persona who is stopping us from this. You're fully in the world of young there, aren't you? We're celebrating a full-on young fan. That's very good to hear. That's interesting. So you talk about this thing about emotions and this leader, you know, saying it's the cost of dealing with the Italian because it's all emotional.

[00:13:22] But that's all part of authenticity, isn't it? Basically just being yourself and allowing yourself to have those emotions and such like. I'm interested in your view on that because I've always had this problem with authenticity. And people talk about just being yourself. And then people say, well, that's all very well, but you shouldn't be yourself at the same time. So talk to me about that. And what does it mean to be yourself, right? Sometimes we have different, I would say, masks.

[00:13:49] And then we even by ourselves, it's difficult for us to figure out what is really going on. And that's why I'm saying this, because when we talk about emotions, of course, culture creates as well the, I would say, space, how we can express our emotions. I love workshops, for example, when I have participants from different parts of the world. And I remember one when there were participants exactly from Italy, from Spain, from Poland and from Asian countries.

[00:14:15] And our colleagues from Italy and Spain said, oh, we are good with expressing emotions. But nobody told us, you know, how to stop them somehow, you know, how to, where is the border? Like the, you know, how we can navigate them. In Poland, we are learning to express emotions, to name them, to see where we're feeling them and what is really going on.

[00:14:40] And of course, in Asia, we know that there is very important as well not to show emotions because then you lose face. From this perspective, I would say that in depending as well what is your background and expressing emotions, it's extremely important. But as well doing this in a healthy way that we respect other people and ourselves. So, you know, even as I gave this example of an Italian colleague, this person is French.

[00:15:07] And so that's why he said, like, you know, that they both together, they can express this more because in his normal workforce, it's impossible because people, they don't understand what is really going on. And that's why if in certain cultures, we, people express emotions, other might be overwhelmed and not understand.

[00:15:28] But, you know, even from Polish perspective, we really look into Italians because we are like, wow, they can do it and they can enjoy life, dolce vita and so on. So this is also, you know, coming back to Jung, it's our kind of shadow that we also would love to do it, but we are learning. And that's true. But sometimes we need to celebrate our differences and stay away from being homogenized and actually everyone being the same.

[00:15:55] And sometimes you need that, the conflict that comes from, and the creative conflict that comes from difference, don't you? So the fact that some people don't express emotions, some people express a lot, there's no need to be the same. What you need to do is celebrate the fact that you're different and let that run. Sometimes you need to get a word in edgeways if you're with Italians, but the fact is that you need to figure out a work of collaborating with different styles, don't you?

[00:16:23] That's the point. Most people end up with a sort of a peculiar corporate speak way of looking at culture and trying to make things work, which always goes at odds with authenticity. I wonder what you think. I fully agree what you said. We need to celebrate this and also see what we can learn from each other.

[00:16:45] Because if one person can express more, then we also become more expressive after a certain time because we are learning through observing people. So this is also mirroring, right? Some emotions and some behaviors. I would say the matter is just to accept and see what we can do with it. Because if one person is expressing other, it's frozen after this because, you know, it's overwhelmed, for example.

[00:17:13] Then, of course, this is not something what I believe anybody would like to experience. But if there is a space for, I would say, you know, controlled emotion boost and each, I would say, even arguments and so on can create a beautiful result because then anger push us to change. Right. So I fully agree what you said. It is interesting, though, that. All right. You're central Europe.

[00:17:43] So we'll say that for the minute. But you're very close to the Arabic lands. You're very close to what used to be the sort of Middle East and all those sorts of places down a bit further down. And it's interesting how we are still pushing Western, very old Western ideas of psychology and worldview into countries. I mean, I work in Africa and all I hear about is, you know, the big American thinkers.

[00:18:10] And I'm thinking to myself, well, the world's different now. Why are we talking about Chinese ideas? You know, why are we looking at religious symbolism and philosophy from from the Asian countries? I mean, the Philippines, the Japanese have ancient traditions. And it's interesting that we very rarely seem to be learning from those cultures. We always seem to be getting this sludge slurry of ideas.

[00:18:38] And they're always old ideas, aren't they? Flowing out of the States and, you know, our own culture as well. So I'm just wondering, you know, that I always wonder whether we're stuck in this paradigm of the sort of West 1940s culture. I just wonder when we're going to break that and get something new. I mean, you're part of this new generation. So I'm looking at you, Monica, kind of thinking, you know, how do you become open to those new ideas?

[00:19:04] But it's funny for me, you know, firstly, I went to Asia and then to the US. So maybe, you know, this is also what my generation is doing. But I believe that one thing is marketing. Who can speak louder and more open about their ideas and so on. And we can see that in Asia, they don't need to scream and pop up some advertisement. They just be.

[00:19:29] And this is what nowadays, my generation as well, we are really missing because so I'm white generation. But as well with a lot of features of, you know, overworking ourselves, working super hard. This is also what I made a research about it. We are the first generation under 30, which we had, you know, I would say medically approved with burnouts,

[00:19:56] which was not ever before happened in especially in my country as well. Probably it was because diagnosis were not that popular. But this is something which a lot of people in my age, they start, you know, after they are 35, I would say 35 and so on, going to Asia and deciding they want to live slower. So I would say that there is this, you know, turning point.

[00:20:20] And I believe that this is something that we need to learn to combine two words. So sometimes if we want, you know, some for fast pace and so on, so we can look at the Western world. And as well, if we want to be just exactly what I said, be looking at the Eastern. And another thing, it's also in academia. So there was a, I would say, big movement.

[00:20:46] I was also head of one NGO organization and intercultural word for scientists and trainers. And during our congresses, we really openly start saying like why we always quote and in our papers, American only studies. We need to look also for other ones, especially in this intercultural words. This is very important to see other perspectives.

[00:21:12] And one thing it's, you know, that there was no access or way less access to full articles and so on. But I would say nowadays, well, even the researchers or groups of researchers, which I'm in, we start, I would say, embracing both sides. So this is only about our awareness and what it's easier.

[00:21:35] Because, of course, if we just, you know, use Google or any other platform, of course, that American, for example, papers will work first. Of course. Interesting. Well, you're the hope of the generation. So thank goodness that you're doing what you do. If people want to reach out and contact you and find out more about what you do, where will they find you? So you're going to find me on LinkedIn. So just write Monica Guzak or as well on my website, MonicaGuzak.com.

[00:22:03] And I will look forward to, you know, hear as well from your perspective, how it's in other countries, not only which we mentioned. Good. Well, it's lovely to hear such a positive voice from your generation and being so open to different cultural influences, even though you're firmly rooted in Carl Jung. So it's been an absolute joy to talk to you tonight. So, Monica, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much. And it was a pleasure to have, you know, possibility to exchange our thoughts. You take care.

[00:22:36] Hi, I hope you found that episode useful and entertaining. If you want to support our work, please go to resilienceunravel.com and you can become a member there as well. You can also send us a question there and even apply to do a podcast. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts or any of the other podcast hosts of your choice, as well as getting hold of some useful resources about resilience and a whole lot more.

[00:23:03] Join us next time on the next edition of Resilience Unraveled.