Henry Shukman – The Path of Awakening

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[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Hi all and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled and welcome to another guest. We've just

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_01]: spoken very briefly before the recording. I was quite intrigued at the accent and

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't ask more but I'm sure we'll get to it. So first of all, good evening

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Henry. Henry Shukman is our guest this week. Hi.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, nice to be with you Russell. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's a gorgeous English accent. Where in the world are you?

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Well actually right now I'm at my mum's home in Scotland.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. Just for a little while but I normally live in New Mexico.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh wow. In the US.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. So are you originally Scottish or is it just where your parents have headed

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and landed up as it were?

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Well actually I'm half Scottish and half Jewish.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: My dad's family came from Poland in 1913 to London and you know as penniless

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_02]: refugees, as tailors. And kind of you know some of them are still tailors

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and my dad became a university professor so I grew up in Oxford.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_02]: But my mum's family were from the borders actually you know Northumbria

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: slash Scotland.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're considering your Northumbria slash Scotland.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking to someone who's actually in Northumberland now without telling

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_01]: me the street name where you went to school and what your neighbours

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: addresses were so come on we're in Northumberland where you?

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Well I didn't grow up there myself but they were in, god I'm just

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_02]: having a mental lapse it's a little village, Anak.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Anak?

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Anmouth, North of Newcastle 20 30 miles or something like that.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And actually the one I mean they were for generations they were coast guards.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh really?

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and then on my mum's on the other side they were from Glasgow.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh forgive them that.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean it's like that's a balancing type thing isn't it you got we you know

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: angelic angels and demons almost on one side of the equation that's

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_01]: something like that yeah.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Very good so how come you've ended up living in all these other different places

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: what's your background what's your story?

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah well the main one has been New Mexico I mean I went out to New Mexico

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and I was 28 29.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Why why why would you do that?

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Well you know I had a I was really lucky I started writing very young

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and had a publisher and the publisher was asking me to do another

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_02]: book with my third what would have been my third book and there was one place

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd always wanted to go which was New Mexico and that was a weird thing that came out of

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: reading DH Lawrence.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You know it's from near Nottingham but the only place he ever owned a house

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_02]: was in New Mexico.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah yeah and he wrote about it he wrote about New Mexico as well as his

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_02]: house actually just amazingly and I one time when I was quite depressed at

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: university I was you know I was in I was renting a room from a sweet guy it was

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of he had problems and he was quite alcoholic and stuff but an incredible

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_02]: reader and the room I was in was just the line with books but also had these

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_02]: sort of pillars of books that didn't fit on the shelves you know and I saw

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: this one called Mornings in Mexico in the in the one of these pillars I

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_02]: thought and it was DH Lawrence who I'd read I didn't I wasn't crazy about him

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02]: actually as a teenager had to read him but but I liked his poetry but and I

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_02]: saw this book and I just wanted to I wanted to see what it was and I had to

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of cool it out from this tower without knocking the whole tower over

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and I managed to do it and I opened it up randomly started reading and it

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: was this I was just spelled about it was like I felt I was you know it

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_02]: was a really weird feeling of like when you know when sometimes this happens as

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're an eager read keen reader you know you just feel transported you feel

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_02]: like it's just a different experience than reading normally is and I felt I

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_02]: want to be in that place that you know it's almost like it transported me

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: there was a factual was it like a memo or something or yeah obviously not a

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_02]: novel it was not a novel it was a book of yeah it was a book of reflections

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_02]: about his life in actually both Mexico and New Mexico

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and it was just so beautiful and so about actually precisely nine years later

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_02]: or something I got out there you know to do that and I and but by which time

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I've already published two books this is my third and I had an amazing time

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and ding ding ding one thing led to another and I'm basically I thought I'd

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: be there six weeks and I'm still there 30 odd years later

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_01]: did you capture the spirit or did you did you find the spirit of what the

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_02]: H. Lawrence had been talking about I did actually he was at the time

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_02]: you know he I don't know how much many of the listeners might know about

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_02]: him but he was this English novelist in the you know early 20th century

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of teens and twenties he died in 1930 very young at the age of 44

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_02]: he had TB so for the last about 15 years of his life he was just travelling

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: he kind of hated England frankly you know and so he went off travelling

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and with his wife his German wife and it was partly curiosity

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_02]: but it was also TB he was looking for dry high places and

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: and actually New Mexico was a state that welcomed

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: consumptives some states didn't really didn't want them but New

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Mexico said come on in we've got what you need and there are a lot of sanatoriums

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_02]: for people with TB back then and I don't think D. H. Lawrence ever went to one of those

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: but he knew it was a good place you know the high dry air because it's very high

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: it's at 7000 feet you know the city of Santa Fe which is the state capital

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_02]: is 7000 feet high and you know big mountains going even higher

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_02]: it's sort of desert and it's alpine you know and and he so he went out

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: as we called it his savage pilgrimage to wonder the world I think in part

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_02]: for these you know tubercular reasons but actually also because he was fascinated

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: by he wanted to find cultures that were more connected with the earth that were

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_02]: more indigenous that didn't have the kind of ills of modern civilization

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_02]: you know he thought humanity had got lost in in the kind of anime or the

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_02]: anonymity of modern urban life and it wasn't connected with the powers of

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_02]: the earth and stuff and he felt he found that in New Mexico with native

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_02]: peoples indigenous peoples still living on ancestral lands you know when I you

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_02]: know I I actually used to teach out in New Mexico at this college called the

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Institute of American Indian Arts so all the students were at least partly

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: indigenous yeah and it blew my mind how getting to know them and you know

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: how how indeed how they had this whole other level of connectivity with

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_02]: the earth and with you know animals and plants and we're just completely lost

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: to a modern urban person like myself you know and it's not surprising in a way

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: because ancient all ancient cultures had similar sort of preoccupations

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: because of course they were closer to it they depended on it more they weren't

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: to makers or industrialists or capitalists necessarily so that's

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: interesting so no you've picked up two or three things out just want to unpack

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit so first of all for those who I think in DH Lawrence why is a famous

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Lady Chattley's lower act I think was the obvious thing but I didn't realize you

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: written travel looks and the second thing is you're sort of saying well I'd

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: already written two books so it's it's quite rare so tell me tell me how

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: so you were sitting pretty young when you've been writing it well well first

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: of all what were you writing at such a young age yeah well I started writing

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_02]: poetry when I was a young teen and I was kind of serious about it in a

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_02]: sense I really I really like doing it and I had a I had a weird childhood I

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: had a very severe skin condition from the age of six months and so I kind of

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I was it made me a bit a bit unusual and weird and you know I didn't I

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_02]: wasn't really I didn't do team sports you know they all could hurt

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_02]: my skin and stuff I did do gymnastics actually but but I but I got when I

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: found poetry I just when both reading it obviously I just found that I loved it

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I loved reading it I was but I didn't like all of it but I I learned how to

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: find what I liked in a poetry book so when you know if I've given a poetry

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: book by a schoolmaster or something like that it's not like my heart leapt with

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_02]: joy tended to sink but I learned that actually if I borrowed through it just

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_02]: looking looking looking I could try to find something that I liked and when I

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_02]: did it was very exciting I could get this vibe of words being able to

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_02]: change my relationship with the world you know that's what it felt like with

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_02]: great poetry so I and then I suddenly found I could write it you know at

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_02]: least I I could write a poem that made me feel totally different about being alive

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_02]: in the world yeah and hatches something I wanted to express about how I love them

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_02]: something about in the world you know and that was really thrilling and I had

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: one friend who was also a poet he then he's he's a published poet as well

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: brilliant poet oh well and and so we kind of egged each other on you know

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and then anyway so when I was nine can I can I do a jump in there because

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: because accessing poetry is really difficult I mean I used to be a classical

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_01]: musician and sometimes the more opaque classical music needs a you almost need

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: a guide to be able to understand it and I I remember doing the metaphysical

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_01]: poets at school and such like and having a brilliant English teacher who

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: gave us a guide as how to get into it and it never involved reading it out

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: in that strange voice that people adopt when they start reading poetry and if

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: you had a tip for someone to discover poetry because it once discovered it's

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a gift that is with you for the rest of your life but how do you how do

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you be how do you advise people to access it in the first place that is

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_02]: such a great question I totally agree with you know first of all I gotta

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02]: say a lot of a lot of poetry I just don't go though is I don't understand

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: it and I don't care to you know and I think I think it's I think poetry did

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: a weird thing to itself a hundred years ago when it became impenetrable but

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_02]: but actually it always carried on around the sides with poets who actually

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: did want to communicate to normal people you know so you have to

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_02]: you have to find that but I mean the classic way and what I got lucky as

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: a kid you remember Ted Hughes the yeah of course great poet he had a fantastic

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: book poetry in the making and it was a book about it was partly about

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_02]: writing poetry but it was also full of poems that he loved and that

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_02]: provided a really good way in this is when I was about 14 I just carried

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that book with me I remember for a couple of years I was never traveled

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: without it kind of thing because there were just bits and pieces in there that

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_02]: you know I loved and would make me feel better if I was down and that was a

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_02]: gateway his work open it up so I think you need a and I also yeah like you

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I had a couple of key English teachers who really helped as well so today if

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody wants to get into poetry the main thing is to find a small

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_02]: anthology you know so you're not overloaded and and you just have to follow

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02]: you just find all you got to do is find one poem that you like and then you

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_02]: can build off that sort of that might lead you to another and so on so you

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_02]: know there but agree it's kind of tricky you know there are a few poets who

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: are easy to like it's interesting you say that I was chatting to someone who

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: was telling me how much they hated poetry and they couldn't understand

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't like a blah blah blah blah and then we were talking about getting married

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and they said it had this wonderful reading at their ceremony which was

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_01]: a course of poem and and I think there's sometimes a sort of difficulty

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: even this isn't that we link it back to childhood we link it back to stuffy

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: English lessons and people sitting there reading stuff not really quite getting

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: the idea of it and sometimes it's as simple as that you're hearing

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: something wonderful at a wedding or even funeral and then just sort of chasing

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_01]: through through those ideas and it's a bit like little gingerbread crumbs isn't

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_01]: it you know you what read one you think that's interesting and it's and

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes for me as a musician it's the rhythm of a poem or the metaphors

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_01]: or the analogies rather than anything else that sits in it because it

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't have to do anything else and just like a piece of art just just needs

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_01]: to mean something to you it doesn't matter what it means to anybody else

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_02]: that's exactly right and I think for me also it's it is often it could be

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_02]: just one image that I just can't forget yeah you know that's to keep reading

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_02]: the poem for that one image and then gradually in time I find oh I love

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02]: more of the poem as well you know but it's up but that's a it is a fringe

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: thing still and it's sad because you know 150 years ago 120 years ago

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: it wasn't a fringe thing everybody had a few hundred lines of poetry by heart

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah it was just standard you know and everybody you know practically everybody

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_02]: might know one or two poems anyway by heart and it's really nice to know

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_02]: lines of poetry by heart yeah because you know you get to know them better as

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_01]: you memorize them we forget that poetry is the underbedding under

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: you know independent idea of opera song we call them legretti or something don't

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: know anyway but actually much of beautiful music is supported by beautiful

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: words and often even modern there's some modern words that are really you know

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: profound and say some quite interesting things and it's and sometimes the music

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: gets in the way of the message there because if you don't like the music then

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you lose this sort of message contained within the within the words I guess

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_02]: exactly and but a great poem is almost like a piece of music you know

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_02]: yes has that beautiful rhythm and has the beautiful images and you know maybe we

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: should hear one a short one go on as through the land of Eve we went and

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: plucked the ripe and the ears we fell out my wife and I we fell out I know not

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_02]: why then kissed again with tears and blessings on the falling out that all

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: the more in dears when we fall out with those we love and kiss again with tears

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_02]: but when we came where lies the child we lost in other years oh there before

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_02]: the little grave there before the little grave we kissed again with tears

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_01]: beautiful is that one of yours you're gonna have to tell me it is

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01]: no it's not it's tennis two months out forgive my ignorance that's no no no way

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_01]: oh wow I didn't I didn't sound like tennis and so maybe so where you do

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_01]: well you got to find the little snippets you love you know yeah yeah I'm gonna

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_01]: have to reawaken my so now I'm just totally distracted talking to you about

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: poetry but obviously you started writing poetry and and where did the writing

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_02]: take you after that well when I was 19 I had I was you know my both my parents

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: were professors at Oxford and my dad had a colleague from Argentina and I took a

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_02]: gap year when up from between school and college and I went to Argentina and

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: worked on two different ranches in Argentina well and then after that I was

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_02]: with a friend we backpacked through Bolivia and on the way I wrote a book

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_02]: about the journey and actually that book ended up getting published a few years

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_02]: later and and after that the publicist wanted another book for me that I wanted

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: to do I was a musician back then I played trombone and I used to play with a lot

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_02]: of these West Indian bands in London where I was living and one of them

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: arranged for me to go out to Trinidad to play with a band out there so then

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I spent a year traveling around basically the Caribbean mostly Trinidad

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_02]: actually playing trombone so I wrote a book called travels with my trombone

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_02]: well and then after that I did this one on New Mexico which was which was a

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: life changer because everything changed you know I got into meditation and I

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_02]: got into Zen and I got into writing novels and more poems and whatever

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: well that before we go there I feel I feel on a bounce and do forgive me for

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: this because it really isn't worth the wait but a little a little ditty of my

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: own which is oh yeah do you know the definition of a gentleman a gentleman is

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: someone that can play the trombone but chooses not to it's not me the

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_01]: bad vibes of the drums you know just as a colleague musician I thought that

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: we were there so it's really interesting to talk about meditation

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: poetry because the pattern the pattern of and I know TM is different but

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: the pattern of poetry is such that we you know with that so beautiful rhythm and

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: such like you can lose yourself in this sort of concept of it by and it's very

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: nature and I don't always like to write it but certainly listening to it is

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: quite meditative isn't it it's a very it's a thing that allows you just

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_01]: to sort of really concentrate in the moment and understand what's exactly

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_02]: going on there's no I agree it can bring you back to the present

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02]: moment yeah in a beautiful way and it can open your heart and it can

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: make you more alive to the here and now in a lovely way and I think

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I totally agree I think it's it's a close it's a close cousin of

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: meditation you know they can go together really well in fact these days when

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm teaching meditation I often bring in poetry yes it's just it can

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_02]: set the room ah in a different place just one short poem and

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_02]: everybody's unplugged from their lives you know that they're busy with

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_02]: the to-do list and they come back and there's this richness in the air

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and a peace and a quiet and we want to be you know you get that

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_02]: sudden feeling of you don't need very much you can appreciate this

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_02]: moment and it's and it's so much being given by this

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: moment you know that's true and and um do you mention meditation

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: you've brought it up it's obviously something it's effective you but for those who

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_01]: aren't familiar you mentioned Zen and TM and such like so and standard

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: meditation can you just sort of give us a thumbnail sketch of the differences

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: between those things so we have a common understanding as we roll forward

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah okay so I put it like this I was trying to do it in like one minute

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02]: so meditation is a practice of being still and quiet basically and there are

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_02]: thousands of kinds of things you can do in meditation the most common one by

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: miles is mindfulness you know and mindfulness is mostly about calming

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: down the nervous system and de-stressing and coming back into present

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_02]: moment awareness where you can appreciate what's going on more and

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: you can kind of embrace and be kind to your own difficult feelings

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_02]: should they come up that's mostly what people understand meditation to be

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_02]: these days and it's great but actually there's a lot more

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_02]: and in the old traditions that have come down you know mindfulness was

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_02]: the baseline you had to learn it was foundational but the big project

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_02]: was awakening what they call awakening and that meant having usually

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_02]: a glimpse of flash that our sense of self as being separate from

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_02]: everything else is in some ways an illusion and there's another level

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_02]: of our experience where we're just connected with everything

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's an incredible thing to discover and you know in time

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_02]: for those who are interested you know you can make access to that

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_02]: a bit more consistently available I mean not everyone is interested in that

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_02]: of course but you can if you are and it's so it's a really cool thing

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_02]: that's basically in a nutshell so some kinds of meditation favor like

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_02]: TM it's mostly about getting into very calm states and which is beautiful

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_02]: mindfulness is mostly about being more aware of what's going on

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_02]: you know and so on Zen is more interested in the awakening side

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_02]: at least it depends which kind of Zen you're talking about

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_02]: because there are different kinds you know so the and the past and I was generally about

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: having some kinds of insights into the nature of the human mind

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and human experience so they're all a bit different in their targeting

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_02]: but broadly speaking it's either about you know helping

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: the ailing human you know ending what ails us

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_02]: or it's about this flash of insight into a whole other dimension to our life

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: is this part of the process of steps to self enlightenment

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know I mean there's that you sounds like you're referring to a scheme

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: of some kind that might be somebody else's system because a lot of

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a lot there's thousands of different

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm talking more about yeah I'm talking more about the

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: the more religious connotations probably maybe

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Hindi or those sorts of meditative practices it's interesting to see you

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_01]: to do your link meditation mindfulness together because I've always heard them pulled apart

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: so that's interesting itself which is why common frame of reference

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah exactly I think that's good because mindfulness is a kind of meditative

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_02]: awareness that you develop in meditation

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I say that meditation is the space of being quiet and still

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and mindfulness is one of the kinds of practice you can do if you're quiet and still

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: okay makes sense yes yes interesting and

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: it was fascinating to get terms defined isn't it otherwise we're talking about things differently

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: exactly all right then so so how makes you you mentioned sort of casually that

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you've written 10 books already and you just created the 11th

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_01]: so broadly what's the body of work about which is a sort of if you think about

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: is a collection what maybe the unifying sort of themes

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_02]: home and abroad you know okay but you know the first three were travel memoirs

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02]: the next one was a poetry collection

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and then there were three novels

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and then there's been a kind of memoir of a spiritual journey

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_02]: called One Blade of Grass

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and that was I guess that was number nine and then there's been the latest one

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_02]: which is about meditation it's called original love

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah but let's have a delve into that because I mean so people get

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: slightly terrified when we start talking about spirituality as if we mean religion

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_01]: but I'm sort of judged by your facial expression you sort of see those things differently

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_01]: so maybe again we could just talk about the difference

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: oh thank you I love to I'm an atheist and but I think I feel I'm deeply spiritual

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and I just think religion is one whole area of way of sets of ways that people have approached spirituality

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_02]: but you totally don't have to do it that way you know and it's so exciting and lovely

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02]: in this day and age that you don't need it you know and and if you want it fine

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_02]: it's your thing you know whatever suits whatever floats your boat

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: but to be deeply spiritual you don't need religion

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_02]: but you might need some kind of practice

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and in other words something that you do on a daily basis

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_02]: that helps you remember you know that you want to stay aware

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and expect in some certain way you know you can

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_02]: so what I've done in my book original love is I've just laid out

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_02]: what I think of the four main sort of areas of development or growth

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_02]: that we can have in our spirituality really

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and which meditation can help with

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_02]: so I was trying to just because it's such a confused area

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to just hey let's let's just get a basic map

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_02]: so we do get that man there are there are different kinds of projects

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_02]: that could all be called spiritual

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and they fall into roughly

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_02]: very roughly these four main kinds of area

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and I call them four inns and yeah I'm sure that there's outliers that wouldn't fit

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_02]: but I think you know you probably cover 94% of what's out there

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: with these four things I think so I think it's helpful to people to know that

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_02]: you know and then I mean I hate the doctrine of original sin

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_02]: you know I think it's a really bad idea

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_02]: that's religion isn't it?

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_02]: it's religion but I think it's seeped into the culture beyond religion

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's in the sort of groundwater

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean as a meditation teacher I just meet so many people

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_02]: who feel profoundly ashamed whatever problems they may have going on in life

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: whether outwardly or inwardly

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: shame compounds those problems very commonly

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think that I take that to be in part a legacy of

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_02]: the religious traditions of the West

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_02]: you know that had a big amount of sort of you know

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: you're damnable if you don't do X or Y

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you know and if you don't agree with us you're going to hell

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and you know, preposterous idea

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_01]: karma is one of those sort of peculiar ideas as well isn't it

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: this sort of idea of pay forward and pay back

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_01]: again it's quite punitive isn't it?

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_02]: well it can be I mean I feel karma is a little bit different

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_02]: because it's laid out as a not exactly a punitive thing

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_02]: but simply as close as you get to a sort of physical law

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_02]: that if you do this there'll be these consequences

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and so it's not, at least as I understand it

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not supposed to be like you're damned

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: it's just like actually if you do this it's going to have consequences

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and if you do basically if you they say consequences follow actions

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02]: like a car follows an ox and it's probably true

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_02]: you know but so if the ox goes in a positive direction

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02]: it's more likely that positive consequences will follow

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_02]: likewise in a negative direction

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I can sort of buy that without it feeling it's too religious

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure there's dimensions of it that get religious

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean yeah I've got I suppose if you think of it as attached to the idea of rebirth

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and reincarnation well yeah you're in a whole other world there

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_02]: but I personally I don't go there you know that's not

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I always find it interesting to people who are interested in past life regression

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_01]: such like who maybe is hypnosis is a thing

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and again missing totally the point of what past life regression was really about

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and so your in's you mentioned those earlier

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_01]: so you've already mentioned mindfulness and you spoke a little bit about

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: awakening but the other two are support and absorption I believe

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_01]: so as if I've made that up by myself not reading your website

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: what are those two things sort of really mean

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah well support is like we could also call it connection

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: it's like there's a whole, because a lot of people

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_02]: it needs to be there I think as a corrective

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: the idea that mindfulness is something you do on your own

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I see

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of people think I've got to do my mindfulness

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_02]: you know I've got to it's like going to the gym

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I've got a fit body I want to have a fit mind

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: so I train on my own but actually a large part of what makes mindfulness practice beautiful

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_02]: is that it helps us discover our connectedness

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_02]: so I draw that out as a second in

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_02]: finding that we're obviously in so many ways

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: we owe our life to things that are not us

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_02]: this body even this mind

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_02]: it's all inheritance and it's all inheritance in the context of this world

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_02]: we're totally adapted to life in this world

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_02]: so if the world changes we might be completely unsuited to it

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and not exist at all and so we're entirely creatures of dependence basically

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_02]: but we don't feel that way

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_02]: we tend to feel that we're separate and have complete agency

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and of course we surely have some agency

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_02]: but to recognize how much we owe to being alive at all

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: is really helpful

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_02]: makes us feel better

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_02]: we don't feel like we're carrying the whole responsibility ourselves

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: it's perspective isn't it?

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_01]: it's that thing about

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: we are inherently social animals

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and philosophically we've been driven into an individual single cell view of the world

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't say individualistic all of a sudden

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_01]: but actually as a group, as a species

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_01]: we are driven to be together and to coalesce

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and obviously compete and fight and such like

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_01]: but I mean inherently the point of the tribe is safety

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and avoiding an energy deficit

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01]: of having to look out for yourself

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's no surprise that we have such terrible numbers on anxiety

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and stress burnout and all those different things

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_01]: because actually we sort of have to do it all ourselves now don't we?

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly, exactly

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: so building up our capacity to recognize our connectedness

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and our vulnerability

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and being open to reaching out

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and we might feel reluctant to

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_02]: so that this whole second in is about developing connectedness basically

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think it happens as well on

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: what Jung would call the level of the collective unconscious

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_02]: so it can happen on that kind of level as well

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think a lot of religion probably invokes that kind of level

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_02]: where people feel they meet figures from religions

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Uncollective consciousness as well, I think people forget that bit

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_01]: we are really well attuned to behaviorally being the same aren't we?

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's quite interesting

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: so that makes total sense and I like that

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: but what about absorption?

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean I think I know what it means

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and we're not going to guess

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_01]: because that may as well learn from the expert

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Well let's hope, I don't know if I'm an expert

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's your book

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Well I know that much

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I know as much as it is in the book

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Basically the layman's term for this is flow states

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh okay

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_02]: You know so where people get really absorbed in a task

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and it can happen to anybody

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: we're famous with it happening to athletes

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: they get in the zone

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: they perform better than they think they can

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: you know and it happens to musicians playing

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and it happens to artists, painting and writers, writing

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_02]: but it also happens to everybody

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_02]: in the course of a daily task

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I get into flow sometimes doing them washing up

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_02]: you know and so there's nothing

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_02]: you don't have to be in some elevated profession

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02]: like art or something

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_02]: anybody or a super athlete

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_02]: anybody can get it

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and the research shows that

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: the more we tap into flow in the course of our daily life

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_02]: the happier people tend to be actually

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's part of meditation as well

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's part of spirituality

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_02]: to get into beautiful states of mind

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_02]: whether it's you know you're looking at a sunset

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and the world goes quiet

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and you feel awe in front of it

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: you know and your sense of what it is to be alive

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_02]: shifts a little bit

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and you get this sense of

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_02]: somehow effort is gone

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_02]: there's no effort and there's a richness in it

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: a sense of fulfillment

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_02]: but no particular reason

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah it's beautiful but still you're

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_02]: feeling like you're fulfilled as a human being

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_02]: even though you don't have to have accomplished anything

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_02]: but you've got that feeling

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and sometimes there's a sense that time goes quiet

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_02]: seems to stop

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: slow right down

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_02]: sometimes there's also a sense of

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_02]: not so self-conscious

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_02]: just existing

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_02]: without having to prove myself in any way

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_02]: so all of that are aspects of absorption experiences

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_02]: you know this and

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I would say

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_02]: meditation if it's done daily

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_02]: just 10 minutes a day or 20 minutes a day

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_02]: whatever someone can manage

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_02]: will likely boost the frequency

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_02]: that we taste flow

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02]: in our normal life

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: we may also get it in

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_02]: we could get it in meditation as well

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_02]: but outside of meditation

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_02]: we might get it more as well

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah it's interesting

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_01]: so I mean this is maybe a fatuous question

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_01]: given you're a track record as actually an author

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_01]: but did you have someone in mind

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_01]: or an avatar in mind when you created this book

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_01]: or is it just more of you putting things into the world

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_02]: you know I totally did

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02]: because I've been teaching meditation now for 14 years

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and by the time of writing the book

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_02]: 10, 11 years

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and the more I was

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_02]: connecting with more people

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and now it's thousands and thousands of people

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_02]: tens of thousands of people actually

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: it's clear that there's confusion

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_02]: about A.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: one of the main possibilities of meditation

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_02]: B. how do you pursue them

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_02]: whichever ones you might be interested in

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_02]: C. how does it relate to religion

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_02]: you know D. do I have to join a cult to do it

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and so on

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_02]: so I don't want to lay out hey

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_02]: this is kind of consistent

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_02]: with contemporary science

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_02]: which it is

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_02]: everything we've been saying so far is consistent

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_02]: with modern neuroscience

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_02]: there's nothing that lies outside it

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe it's a little bit lagging on the awakening side

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's pretty mind blowing and hard to track

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_02]: but all of the possibilities

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_02]: are within

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_02]: the range of scientific

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_02]: understanding even for a skeptic

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02]: so you don't have to buy into

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_02]: some iron age belief system

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and actually you can have

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd say a deeper spiritual life perhaps

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_02]: than some of the iron age doctrines

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_02]: would offer

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: so it's for anybody who's kind of interested in spirituality

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_02]: without religion and in meditation

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a lot of people interested in meditation today

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_01]: there are

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean the number of podcasts requests we get to talk about meditation

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and whether it's a sort of practical side

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_01]: or the philosophical side or whatever

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_01]: it's always popular

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: so yours is something that may be a lot of supply

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_01]: but there's certainly huge demand as well

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_01]: so there's no problem with that

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and I just bought your book so there you go

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_01]: so there's another person that's going to listen

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I was listening really but I know as a man

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not supposed to multitask

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_01]: but I thought I'd do it while I was thinking about it

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: so remind us of the title

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: of where we can get hold of it

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah original love

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_02]: the four inns on the path of awakening

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's out in the US

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's going to be out in the UK

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_02]: in about just under a month

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_01]: it's out already

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_01]: is it out already?

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_01]: it's out in Kindle

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I can tell you that for a start

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_02]: okay great great great

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe Kindle an audiobook might be available

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02]: did you read it?

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I did

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_01]: oh it's fine

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you've got a great voice

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I can imagine having an enjoyable time

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_01]: well look it's been an absolute joy to bump into you

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_01]: it's one of the pleasures of having a podcast

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: is you meet fascinating people

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and you learn something on many of the episodes

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and I did tell you how long

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_01]: an episode was going to last

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and you can see how much I like

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_01]: because I've enjoyed it so much

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_01]: so look thank you so much for spending time with us today

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I really do appreciate it

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_01]: thank you very much

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_02]: it's lovely to be with you

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and I've had a nice time chatting

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I've really enjoyed the spontaneous nature of it

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_02]: can I just plug one other thing?

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_02]: it's we've got an app

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_02]: it's an app called The Way

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_01]: okay

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Meditation app

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's unlike any other meditation app

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_02]: you have no choices

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_02]: it's one single pathway

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and it trains you in meditation

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_02]: so you just follow the single pathway

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and it kind of goes with the book

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_02]: it follows the same sort of map that the book has

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_01]: just looking at it now

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_01]: so people can say it's

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_01]: The Way meditation path

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_01]: that's it

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: okay well brilliant

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_01]: thank you so much for your time

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I've bought all the products

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got the t-shirt

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I shall be

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_01]: humming and flowing

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and having a marvellous time

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got a trend journey on Wednesday

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_01]: so it's also great time to consume new things

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_01]: so I've got my reading pile with me

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_01]: it'll be on the list

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Henry, thank you so much

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: thank you for spending time with us

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_01]: thank you for having me

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_01]: you take care

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, thanks for listening

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_01]: hopefully that was a useful and interesting episode

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_01]: as I said earlier

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you can support our work by leaving a review

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_01]: which does drive enhanced exposure

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_01]: or you can donate on our site

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_01]: which is at QEDOD.com

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_01]: you can purchase our series of books

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_01]: all about unravelling resilience

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_01]: leadership, management and anxiety

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_01]: at QEDOD.com

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and along with some other free resources

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_01]: available on the site

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_01]: we've also got a Patreon page

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and you of course can send us questions

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_01]: ideas, thoughts, conversations

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and fresh subjects

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_01]: at info at QEDOD.com

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_01]: hopefully there's something there for you

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: catch you next time round