The Art of Relationships in Life and Leadership with Lionel Moses

[00:00:03] Hi, I'm Dr. Russell Thackeray and welcome to Resilience Unravelled, a podcast with new ideas, new thoughts and new thinking about resilience. Guests with remarkable stories, products and services that can really power up your own mindset and resilience. You can also go to our site for more information, to ask questions or to access some of our resources at resilienceunravelled.com. Let's get started.

[00:00:33] Hello and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled. And it's my joy today to introduce you to Lionel Moses. Tell us a little bit about yourself. I just want to say good morning to you as well. Thank you for having me on your podcast. I'm excited to be here. Lionel Moses, I'm just a native of the great state of New Jersey in the United States of America. I serve my country as a veteran. I'm a father of four. I'm a grandfather now. Really?

[00:01:02] Yes, I am. Yeah, yeah. I always have to throw that in because that's one of the greatest things in my life. You know, my relationship with my kids and my grandkids. I just, yeah, I just love that so much. The more, you know, I expand per se, the more relationships mean to me. So that's why I just love to look at relationships. You know, what I do for fun. I enjoy tinker with cars. I enjoy meeting people. I think the most fascinating thing on this planet is people. And that's really quite old, isn't it, Lionel?

[00:01:30] Because when I was looking at your background earlier, I discovered you've been in accounting. And yet you're talking about people and you've got a personality. What's this happened? Have you had a sort of a personality graph? What's going on? Oh, that's funny. You mentioned that. I tell people all the time. I'm not your typical accountant. Yes. I spent a lot of time in the finance arena. Yes. I do corporate taxes. So the most boring thing in the world, but I'm not the old pocket protector type accountant. I'm good with numbers. I'm good with systems.

[00:02:00] And the beauty of it is, you know, the type of work I do, it involves working with people and I get to touch people. So for me, being someone that loves to interact with people, for me, it's a great place. Although I currently work within a corporation, have a team around me of people who, you know, for lack of a better word, in order to relax and have fun and keep our mind off the mundane

[00:02:29] numbers and calculators, we talk. Amazing concept. Yeah. And of course, in terms of, we're going to be cynical for a moment, it's one of the most important things in terms of productivity, isn't it? To have good relationships in the workplace. And what makes a good relationship is fascinating, isn't it? Because it's not always about getting on with each other. It's not always about being nicey, friendly, friendly, isn't it? It's about how we have productive relationships in the workplace.

[00:02:56] But I guess we should go back to the beginning because you talked about workplace relationships right at the very beginning. And you said you found people and relationships fascinating. So why don't we start there? Tell me about why you find relationships so interesting. The reason I find relationships so interesting is because everyone is different. We're all a makeup of our experiences, our upbringings. And then yet we have a common denominator, which is the workplace where we're at.

[00:03:23] And learned that while we're different, there's beauty in the difference. You go into an art gallery, you'll see a beautiful picture. On the picture, paint splattered all over the place, abstract. And that's the beauty of it. The differences. And for me, I'm always in a posture of a student. So I always want to learn. So just learning the difference in each other and seeing the beauty in it, that fascinates me more than anything. And it's fascinating as well, isn't it?

[00:03:49] Because the fact that we are different makes it a synergy. Because that's really lovely, isn't it? One plus one equals three sometimes. But the trouble is relationships. Sometimes one plus one can equal half as well. So you can have relationships which are less than the subtotal of the parts, both at work and in personal relationships. You do see a huge number of relationships that break down in marriages. And there's this sort of thing, isn't it? You look at people and say, why would you pick that partner for yourself? It's quite odd, isn't it?

[00:04:18] I wonder if you've ever thought about those sorts of things. Okay, you're going in deep now. Yes, I've thought of it. So I'm actually a divorcee. I was divorced. And I don't look back and say, why did I choose that partner? I look back and I see the growth between the two of us. So while when we came together, we were perfect for each other in that season, as seasons and life and situations change, we don't necessarily grow the same.

[00:04:44] It's like having two trees, same type of trees, same types of soil. You're five inches away. It may be a little bit less nutrients in that area than it is the other. And you can't force growth. You either grow together or you don't. So I never looked back negatively. I looked back positively because there's a beauty in the fact that there are differences. Disappointed that we couldn't grow together. But I just, I love the fact that we do grow.

[00:05:13] We see differences and we still have amicable relationships, me and my ex. Yeah. It is an odd thing. And so I guess we know why this has happened. But it's an odd thing that we should suppose that humans would be monogamous. Some religions and cultures in the earth don't believe that to be true. But it's also true that as human beings, we do grow and stretch and differ and change. And it is odd to think that one relationship with another person would be fulfilling, nurturing, flexible enough to do that.

[00:05:42] And I remember someone once saying to me that basically we should all divorce after 10 years. And if you want to stay married, you should bid to stay married. And I thought that was quite an interesting way because it really forces you to think about why you're married, why you're together, why you want to stay. And it's a bit like at work, isn't it? Every performance review, you're challenged to think, what do you really want to be here? And I think, I don't know if we think enough about that in our personal lives. That's something I've never gave any thought to, but it is an interesting concept,

[00:06:10] especially looking at our lives after 10 years. We're definitely, we should be different people than we were when we first started. Yeah. So that makes a lot of sense. It's, I'm not going to say that I will buy into it because I'm, I'm of the generation that I still want the happily ever after. And I believe it's possible. It just requires a lot more work than most people. It seems like are willing to put into it or even know how to put into it. Yeah. Let's talk the work setting first of all. And should we talk about what makes a great work relationship?

[00:06:40] And how do we start the process of building that? Or does it just all happen by accident? What's your thoughts? I don't believe that anything happens by accident. I believe everything, especially when it comes down to a relationship, it requires intentionality. Simply for the fact that you have two different people. I have to see the beauty and the goodness in you and respect that. I have to understand the contribution that you bring to the table. And whether or not, you know, you do, you reciprocate.

[00:07:10] I need to see the beauty in everything else. And what I like to do is when I see something good in someone else, I tell them. I'm not sure how often people get positive compliments in a day. I just would like to be the one. When you think about me, that's a guy that always has something positive to say. Not that I'm forcing anything, but if you look hard enough, you'll see something positive in almost everything, I believe. That is a very interesting theory.

[00:07:40] And it's backed up by lots of good evidence that says that actually if you use correct or positive feedback really well, you don't really need to use the corrective sort, which is the bit that people often fear using. Because all positive feedback does is to reinforce the behaviors that are really good and you want to see more of. So why wouldn't we talk about those things? I wonder how we've got ourselves into a place where we have to see leadership as a sort of a finger-wagging parental sort of thing. And perhaps we just don't treat people as adults and say, this is what you've done well today.

[00:08:10] I think it's a major misconception in what we think. There is a story I read a long time ago about Mr. Walt Disney, founder of Disney. And one thing that he always did was he spoke positive to people. Did he? Yes. He always spoke positive to people. He would encourage them, regardless of what area they were lacking in. He'd speak positive to them on the things where they're doing great. So that way they will inspire to do great across the board. And it tends to work out for them. Yeah. Yeah, there is something about that.

[00:08:40] It's something about finding people's talents or potential. And sure that works. No, not everyone's perfect. Not everyone gets it. But that's what learning is for, isn't it? Absolutely. Absolutely. And something you mentioned before, I think that's what true leadership is. Leadership is to guide people to where you need them to be, not to demand them to get there on their own. You have to take, I believe the best leaders take an interactive approach, whether you're in the trenches hands-on,

[00:09:07] or you're just speaking praise to someone, or just speaking confidence to them, knowing that they have the ability to do it. Yeah, that is interesting, isn't it? But it's interesting because I remember reading something about the difference between leadership as an art and a science. And I'm interested to think, you know, where you stand on that. Because I like that thought. That's all that intentionality that you've talked about in terms of relationships. But I wonder where that sits with leadership. Is that the same? I definitely believe so. Lady, you have to intentionally, you have your goals.

[00:09:37] And it's usually higher than those that work with you. So in order to get there, one of my mentors always say, you don't go as far as your dream, you go as far as your team. So that's why respect needs, I believe respect needs to go down before it goes up. While most people in, we'll say higher seats, which is, I don't really think is a lateral move as far as leadership is concerned. But I believe if you respect downward, you'll be able to reach the people that's down there and pull them up and make leaders of them.

[00:10:05] I think that's, for me, that's a true assessment of a good leader. How many leaders are you making? Yeah. If you're producing, if you're producing, reproducing yourself, then you're a good leader. If you're not reproducing yourself, then I challenge the fact of whether you're a good leader or just a great manager. Yes. Interesting. But part of being a great leader, I think, is managing people who are in the workplace where conflict does exist, because conflict is a natural facet of that difference you were talking about.

[00:10:31] So how does a good leader, how should a good leader be looking at conflict in their team and thinking about how they get performance either as a result of that conflict or despite it? The best way for me to answer that is, I'm going to use one word, and I'm going to say they need to approach it honestly. Good. Assess it for what it is. If there's no malice, as you said, conflict is going to exist between two people.

[00:10:58] And one of the reasons why I believe that anything that requires growth requires intentionality is we have conflict within ourselves. And one of the things I always taught my kids is that if you ever change your mind, that's you telling yourself you disagree with the old you. That's a conflict. So if you have an internal conflict and you address it honestly and you look at it honestly, you have to be able to accept the same thing for others.

[00:11:23] So I would say approach it honestly and acceptingly for what it is. Yeah. And if you change your mind about yourself, you've developed the relationship you have with yourself as well, haven't you? Absolutely. So tell me a bit more about that. When we walk into the world, we walk into the world without knowing anyone or anything. While we were in our mom's belly for nine months, we don't know anything. So we have to establish a relationship.

[00:11:53] What a relationship is just simply how you relate to something. We have to have learned how to relate to breathing outside of a room, how to nourish and eat ourselves because it was just given to us. So we're in a constant state of learning how to relate in different environments, in different places. And as we do, and just then as an adult, if you move from one job to another job or from one home to another home, to one neighborhood, to another neighborhood, you have to learn how to relate in your new environments.

[00:12:21] You're not typically going to go to the same grocery store for your food. So you have to find another one that best suits your needs. So we're constantly in a state of building and changing our personal relationship because relating is just this way of life. It's something we do daily.

[00:13:09] Interesting, isn't it? And it's one of the reasons why I care so much about relationships now. So we're taught how to relate to our siblings, our classmates while we're in school, being educated, but not necessarily, I'll say, in the free world once we get out. Okay, if I'm in school, I know that for eight hours or six hours, whatever it is, I have to be amongst my peers. I have to listen to the teacher.

[00:13:36] And if I don't, I have to go home and answer to my parents. As an adult, the choice is mine of what I do. And the outcome that I want produces how I respond. I was never taught to do it. I just knew I had to because as a father or husband, I need to provide for my family. And if I spoke my mind every second without considering someone else, my family would have starved.

[00:14:01] And I think the biggest thing is in the world, especially here where I'm at in the United States, in Jersey, it's like we don't have enough consideration for others. Interesting. So you're talking in a way there about strategic lying because you're knowing when to keep your mouth shut. And actually lying is a really interesting part of relationships, isn't it? It's that thing about you have to know because there's this idea that you can be very honest with people all the time. You can only be honest with people who have the intellectual capacity to deal with honesty.

[00:14:31] And of course, human beings are extraordinarily good at lying to themselves and other people. And often lies are a great way to make relationships work, aren't they? So it's a real challenge, isn't it, when you come to all this stuff about authenticity and leadership and such. But sometimes we've got to think about the quality of that relationship and balance it with the job that's been done and the outcome that you want. And that creates all sorts of problems, isn't it? It does. And I understand what you mean by strategic lying, but I try not to use that word.

[00:15:01] When you balance the information that you provide someone, as you said before, based on their capacity, it's definitely in your best interest and usually in the best interest of your audience to withhold some information. Yes. And not saying I'm going to say something that's 180 degrees completely different, which, you know, and that's for me, that's my definition of a lie. And it's probably something that's stuck in my head. But someone can't handle information. You don't give it to them.

[00:15:26] And as a parent, as a leader, as a friend, you need to do that. You have to know when and where to withhold information for their sake. Because we're both aware, sometimes 100% honesty, total honesty can crush someone. Yeah. Especially anyone that's married, but if, you know, your significant other comes say, hey, how does this, they're excited. How does this look on me? Yeah. You have to think of how to answer that question. Yes.

[00:15:55] You want to be fed later on that day. Absolutely. You have to think of how to answer it. No, I get that. But I don't think we're honest enough about this amazing. I don't think we're honest enough about lying. I think because the word itself has developed connotations. But it's about choosing what to say, how much to say, when to say it. We call that influencing, don't we? All we do is lie about the term lying itself, isn't it? That's very interesting. And we talk about, it's interesting, isn't it?

[00:16:22] Because you've been a vet and you've been in the commercial world and you've worked in non-profits. And there are similarities between relationships. But there's often big differences between the sort of relationships you have to have if you're in a theatre of war to working in an office with someone who's just waiting for you to produce a set of numbers. Those relationships are very different. They're bound differently. They're forged differently, aren't they? You don't have to depend on someone to protect your back.

[00:16:49] And I often think there's a problem in trying to say that all these relationships are the same. I think they're all different, aren't they? I believe they're all different. Based on my experience, they're all different and how you manage them are all different. I take every relationship completely differently. And how you manage yourself and manage relationships in each environment is completely different. A little story. As you said, I am a vet. And I'm actually a Desert Storm veteran. Oh, wow. And I was in the United States Navy.

[00:17:17] And I clearly remember the ship that I was on were headed out on a cruise in the Mediterranean. I was so excited. And actually, at the time, my wife was pregnant with a child. And I knew there was a conflict going on. But I remember the captain coming on the ship and saying, hey, our orders did not change. We're going on the same cruise that we went on before. Do not worry. We're sticking to it. Our government knows what we need. And we're going on our cruise as planned.

[00:17:44] As soon as we hit the horizon where we could not see land, I was on an aircraft carrier. They flew the planes off. And they told us our orders changed. Now, whether that's a lie or not, I don't have the clearance to know whether it's true. But it's just coincidentally, the orders changed maybe 15 minutes after they comforted us. And nothing's the one report. When they were comforting us, they comforted us over the loudspeaker. While we were important, our families were there waving at us. Yeah.

[00:18:15] So it was just unique. You mentioned that how you deal with truth varies on where you are. There was nothing I could do in that situation. No. There's nothing anyone could do in that situation. As far as in a family is concerned, my kids and my wife, those are two completely different relationships. There are certain things I may share with my wife and can't share with my kids. You have to share with them on that level where they are. There is some, as you said, strategic line that takes place or withholding of information.

[00:18:46] Yeah, that's good. Now, I remember years ago, I read a book called Games People Play, which was the seminal book for me as a psychologist understanding quality relationships. And I avidly read all sorts of books on relationships. And I'm really pleased to hear that you've written one as well. So tell us something about what this book is and who you wrote it for. The name of the book is called The Marriage Seed. And actually, I wrote it for anyone that's looking to enhance a relationship. The reason why I entitled it Marriage, I started to entitle Relationship.

[00:19:15] But the reason why I entitled it Marriage, because marriage is a commitment. And I believe any relationship you have, regardless of where it is or what type of relationship, there needs to be some sort of commitment. That's what makes it a relationship. So what I like to do is contrast, like, gardening to relationships. If you plant something in the ground, it's going to require a few things. It's going to require sunlight. It's going to require water. And it's going to require fertilizer. Now, natural fertilizer is dung.

[00:19:47] And in life, in any relationship, you're going to have to deal with some dung. Yeah. In life, there's going to be some times where it's just going to seem like everything's pouring down on you. And there's going to be some times where the sun is shining. But when you put it all together, you have something great that can grow beautifully. That's fascinating. It's interesting. I remember the old joke, isn't it? You treat people like mushrooms because you cover them in dung and tell them anything. So, okay.

[00:20:16] So is this written for men, women, for the marriages themselves? Who do you think is going to get the best use out of something like this? I think the best use would be for people that's actually dating or want to enhance their relationship. Okay. And the reason why I say dating is because one thing that you mentioned earlier before was talking about the capacity people have. So your emotional capacity affects how you relate, how you connect with people. So it helps you find the right partner.

[00:20:43] And it also helps you find things within your partner that can enhance the current relationship. And as with plants and gardening, plants bloom better in the spring and summer than they do in the winter. So you have to be prepared for the different seasons in relationship. And one of the things we do is we coach you through it. And one of the inspirations behind the book is, as I said, I'm a divorcee. I was married. I did great in some areas and I failed at many.

[00:21:09] And I thank goodness that I had people like you that I could talk to. I had counselors and therapists that coached me through things and helped me see life a lot differently to help build up my resilience. It is interesting, isn't it? Because there was a documentary on Netflix quite recently about, I can't remember what it's called. I don't know if you had it in the States, but it was all about the role of young men in society and things like incels and such like. And these are people who find having relationships with women extremely different.

[00:21:39] Now, they could have a relationship with men as well. The way that romantic relationships are being constructed these days, they're really changing, aren't they? Because the role of women's different, men's different. And I wonder, actually, if your book might cover some of this, the way that relationships are changing for a modern world. A modern world where we don't interact in the same sort of ways. There's a lot less trust in the world, especially at the moment where we may be in a pre-war environment as well.

[00:22:08] It's challenges to the traditional idea of relationships on them. I don't touch that directly in the book. One thing I discuss often in the book is the diversity of life. Good. Meaning that I personally don't believe in set gender roles. I'm not a great cook, but I can cook. Standard gender roles would say that a wife, where I'm from, a wife would cook or that's of a female gender. If I like doing it, why not?

[00:22:35] If the other person that I'm in a racial issue with is better with numbers than me, just because I'm a male doesn't mean I should handle it. The relationship has to be about growth. And that needs to be the point, the decision-making in everything that we do. Okay. Which serves a relationship best? You doing it or me doing it? Yeah. Yeah, it's good. I think it's really important. So it's in mostly marriages. It must be called Marriage Seed, which is great.

[00:23:04] It's got a beautiful picture on the front of a tree. And I can see it's available, as they say, in all good bookshops and sitting on Amazon.co.uk at the moment, which is really great. It's called The Marriage Seed. Right. And How to Cultivate the Relationship You Design and Deserve. I couldn't find it under the title, but I found it under your name, Lionel Moses. So that's good news. If people want to get a hold of you otherwise, Lionel, how would they do that? Tell us about your socials, websites, and all those other bits and bobs. I can be found on every social website.

[00:23:34] It's just Lionel Moses. And my website is just LionelMoses.com. Sometimes it's lovely when a plan comes together. It's as simple as that, isn't it? Absolutely. It's been an absolute joy to meet you. I think you've got some really interesting insights going on there. And I think it's nice to have something positive to talk about in terms of relationships and that you're positively in thoughts of the future. So I like all that. It's been a joy to talk to you today. Likewise, it's been a great pleasure talking to you.

[00:24:02] You picking my brain and sharing so much wisdom, I greatly appreciate it. No problem. Look, you take care. You as well. Take care. Bye. Hi, I hope you found that episode useful and entertaining. If you want to support our work, please go to resilienceunravel.com and you can become a member there as well. You can also send us a question there and even apply to do a podcast.

[00:24:28] You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts or any of the other podcast hosts of your choice, as well as getting hold of some useful resources about resilience and a whole lot more. Join us next time on the next edition of Resilience Unraveled.