[00:00:00] Welcome to Resilience Unravelled. Hi everybody and welcome to Resilience Unravelled, a podcast that examines all aspects of personal and organisational resilience. A huge all-encompassing subject that covers the ability to thrive in life by harnessing your cognitive, emotional, physiological and contextual abilities. I share stories from people who have thrived despite remarkable obstacles, as well as highly successful practitioners and experts across a range of topics.

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[00:01:12] Hi and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled. We're dealing with quite an interesting subject this evening and one that some people may be a little triggered by. So we're going to be talking a bit about violence and potential sexual assault. So I just want to make sure that anybody who's listening just is in the right frame of mind. And we're not going to be describing anything graphic, but we're going to be describing anything graphic.

[00:01:35] We're going to be talking about the subject broadly. So I need to welcome my guest, first of all. It's Aaron Stone from the States, somewhere in the States, with a magnificent backdrop of all the Transformers toys from the 80s, which is an amazing way.

[00:01:49] It's an amazing backdrop for such a difficult subject, Aaron. So first of all, welcome.

[00:01:55] Thank you for having me, sir.

[00:01:56] Well, tell me a bit about yourself, if you would, before we get going.

[00:02:01] Yes. My name is Aaron Stone, as you mentioned. I'm currently living in El Paso, Texas.

[00:02:06] I'm originally from North Carolina. I joined the Army when I was 18 years old.

[00:02:11] I meant to only do about four years and then do something else. Those four years turned into 27.

[00:02:16] I just retired a couple of years ago, and now I'm a speaker and advocate for male-on-male sexual assault survivors.

[00:02:24] Okay. So that's a good profile. So tell us a bit about your Army career. Was the sexual assault in the Army, or was that something that took place beforehand?

[00:02:34] No, it was before the military. It was when I was 15 years old by a male teacher.

[00:02:39] But when I joined the military in the late 90s, seeking help at the time for behavior health was seen as a stigma because you were seen as the weak link.

[00:02:48] If you couldn't take care of yourself, I can't take care of those under your charge.

[00:02:52] So I simply lived with it, kept my personal and professional life separate, and basically moved on with my career.

[00:02:58] I was a medic, and I did very well keeping those two lives separate for a very long time.

[00:03:04] Yeah. So without going into the details of it, and obviously just talk about things that you want to talk about.

[00:03:09] Don't talk about anything you don't want to talk about, if that makes sense.

[00:03:12] But could you sort of outline what was your experience?

[00:03:18] Basically, you know, I met this teacher in the early 90s because my parents divorced when I was five years old.

[00:03:24] And so my grandparents raised me pretty much to kind of alleviate some of the burden off my own mom.

[00:03:30] And so my grandfather became my father figure.

[00:03:33] And once he passed away, even though my mom and grandmother are doing an excellent job of raising us,

[00:03:39] I'm still looking for that male role model, that father figure, because I had not heard from my father since I was five years old.

[00:03:46] And I found that in a teacher at a place where I worked when I was 14 years old.

[00:03:51] And I knew him for a year. Nothing inappropriate ever happened.

[00:03:56] He basically frequented the restaurant that I worked at.

[00:03:58] He wasn't a teacher at my school, but he was within the school system.

[00:04:02] And looking back now with a little more educated eyes, a little more experienced,

[00:04:05] I could see that he was grooming me. I was the perfect candidate for him for over that year.

[00:04:10] And, you know, a year later, I'd been to his house countless times before.

[00:04:15] Nothing inappropriate ever happened. And then one morning he he raped me and he held that power over me,

[00:04:24] knowing that, you know, who's going to believe this kid over this teacher?

[00:04:27] So I didn't say a thing. In fact, I even lied to my own mother about what happened,

[00:04:32] because shame at that time became my motivator for such a long time, because I was taught,

[00:04:38] you know, inadvertently with societal standards of this machismo culture that we have is that if

[00:04:46] another man lays his hands on you, you keep it to yourself. You don't show emotion.

[00:04:49] And so I did that very well for a very long time.

[00:04:53] Yeah. Yeah. And shame is a terrible thing, isn't it? Because the whole nature of shame means it's very

[00:04:59] hard to open up because actually you help. Then you have the whole anxiety issue of what happens if I do.

[00:05:05] So it's so that's a challenge. So so you and you've done what's quite often the case,

[00:05:12] which is defend the defend the aggressor as well. That often happens, isn't it? Is that something

[00:05:16] you've just you've discovered talking to other survivors of assault?

[00:05:20] It is. You know, he at the time that I knew him, he had been a teacher by that time for almost three decades.

[00:05:26] So he was, you know, a pillar in the community. Everyone knew him. And even though I had not seen

[00:05:34] him since the day of the assault, he still had that mental power and that sway over me knowing that I

[00:05:41] wasn't going to say anything, because like I said, I had no proof whatsoever. My word against his.

[00:05:47] And he knew that I wasn't going to go through life with this shameful burden for so long because I didn't even

[00:05:54] seek help until over 17 years later, due to our nervous breakdown, forced him to do so.

[00:06:01] Even though in the military in the early 2000s with Iraq and Afghanistan kicking golf and, you know,

[00:06:08] on a battleground with two fronts, with the rise of PTSD, the stigma of behavior health began to

[00:06:16] slowly fade away. But there was a lot of us who still held that old school mentality of, yes,

[00:06:21] I want my soldiers to take care of themselves. But when it comes to myself, I didn't do it.

[00:06:27] You know, we always harp on taking care of our physical self. But when it comes to

[00:06:30] taking care of our mental self, for some reason, that's always looked down upon. And so

[00:06:35] a nervous breakdown finally forced me to seek the help that I needed. And I finally took those first

[00:06:40] steps towards recovery. Yeah. Did you want to plan to go into the army or was going in a sort of a

[00:06:44] reaction to what had happened to you? Um, it always been some sort of a plan. I was accepted to

[00:06:51] university. I wanted to go in as an army nurse because my mom was in the Navy. My father was in the

[00:06:58] army. But I decided just to join after high school, travel the world, see something else, do something

[00:07:04] else for a little bit, get away from my hometown for a couple of years. And it just exploded from

[00:07:10] there. Yeah. And obviously, during the time you're in the army, you're obviously experiencing other

[00:07:15] things that could become PTSD or could become forms of trauma as well. To what extent did they

[00:07:23] sit independently of this thing? Or what to what extent were they sort of reinforcing each other?

[00:07:29] Like I mentioned, I was able to keep my personal professional life very separate for a very long

[00:07:34] time. You know, in the mornings, I'm that perfect soldier standing tall. But at night, I'm inside my

[00:07:40] barracks room crying inside this shell that's been keeping me in close for so long, trying to figure

[00:07:46] out, trying to come to grips with what happened to me years prior. And it's turning instead of turning

[00:07:52] to drugs or alcohol, basically my way of coping and trying to gain power over my own body again was

[00:07:57] cutting. I would cut my upper arms and thighs. So that wore shorts and t-shirt, no one could see.

[00:08:04] So that was my way of trying to get to regain my power that he just continuously held over me.

[00:08:10] Yeah. Yeah, it's people don't understand that need to have some sort of sense of power in that self,

[00:08:17] you know, self harm is a form of power, isn't it? So but you're right in terms of drugs and

[00:08:22] alcohol as well. That's often the often the way because there's more of a sort of a numbing effect as

[00:08:27] well. So so you mentioned the nervous breakdown. So can you describe how you went into that? And

[00:08:32] what was that like? So if somebody else is coming close to that, they can sort of recognize the

[00:08:36] signs? Um, yes, it happened very quickly. This was 17 years after the attack in January of 2010.

[00:08:46] I'm driving home from work one evening. And I don't know if it was a sight to sound or smell.

[00:08:51] But something had triggered my mind in such a way that I started to shake uncontrollably and started

[00:08:57] to cry. I pulled over. I called my wife, who at the time didn't even know what happened to me.

[00:09:02] That shame was there that I'd even tell anyone. And I told her what happened. I said, I can't do this

[00:09:08] anymore. I need help. And the very next morning, I'm enrolled into an inpatient behavioral health

[00:09:14] facility with a group of about 14 or 15 other patients. And I wasn't planning on saying a thing.

[00:09:21] I plan on finishing the program, doing what I had to do and and move on with my life. And that morning,

[00:09:28] uh, Marv, my counselor, he was excellent at what he did. And I told my story for the first time to a

[00:09:34] group of strangers. And as cliche as it sounds, the weight of the world was lifted off my shoulders.

[00:09:39] And I finally taken that first step towards recovery. Yeah. Now that's interesting you say

[00:09:44] that. So because of course, the, the idea of telling someone becomes so terrifying, isn't it?

[00:09:51] That the, once you've actually done it, did it seem, did it seem when you look back on it,

[00:09:56] did it seem appropriate not to have said anything? I mean, you know, was that, was that reaction?

[00:10:01] Was that fear? Was it, was it appropriate? I don't mean appropriate. I mean, um, linked, um,

[00:10:08] equivalent in a sense, the sort of fear of doing it and actually doing it. Cause it sounds like

[00:10:13] afterwards it was fine, but just before you must've started to speak, it must've been

[00:10:17] horrendous. Was it? It was, I mean, I, I, you know, the, we've all heard the term of soldier on,

[00:10:23] put your head down and you know, you, you, you basically just run through what you have to

[00:10:27] finishes as soon as possible with as little pain as possible. And I don't think the fear was there,

[00:10:34] I understand it. I just, that shame still held sway over me basically. Um, I'm what, 32 years old at

[00:10:41] this time. And this man had a power over me for so long and just getting it out there, you know,

[00:10:47] in words, hearing myself say that having other people know what happened to me, that power of

[00:10:53] his fell away literally at that time, he no longer held that sway. And as you said, that fear basically

[00:11:00] dissipated as soon as it was out there, it was, it was such a relief to finally have it done to say

[00:11:07] something. And now that I tell my story all the time, it is still a form of therapy for me. Cause

[00:11:14] it's still a little scary. Of course, you know, you always wonder what people think, but I hope that

[00:11:18] inspires others because there are so many others that are out there that I've been through what I did

[00:11:23] and they are afraid to speak up. They're afraid to say something. They think there is no help or that

[00:11:28] no one will understand what they're going through. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it goes on all the time.

[00:11:34] It goes on all over the place. It's been something that's been happening to, you know, for us, for as

[00:11:40] long as there's been men and boys, you know, it, it happens. And, um, you know, and often it's people

[00:11:45] in power, isn't it? It's often the church or teachers or pastors or scout leaders or whatever it

[00:11:51] might be that, you know, and often it's, they don't even have a history of it. Sometimes they do,

[00:11:55] but sometimes they don't. So, so you said you, you, you, you, you dealt with, you dealt with it.

[00:12:00] So did you then continue with counseling or did you find that just, um, saying it was enough?

[00:12:07] No, I continued. Um, I started medications. I started seeking therapy regularly, which I still do.

[00:12:12] I still see a therapist. I found the great one here in El Paso that I've been seeing for over a year now.

[00:12:18] And just because, you know, I still have to, you know, maintain myself just as I go to the gym

[00:12:23] every day, I still have to maintain the gray matter between my ears and talking to a third party

[00:12:30] helps me do that. Even though speaking to groups is another form of therapy, you know, sometimes I

[00:12:35] just have other issues that I want to speak about. And you're right. You mentioned, you know, it's

[00:12:40] usually those that we know we, you know, we teach our children stranger danger growing up when more

[00:12:45] times than not. It is those that are in power, those teachers, those in uniform, those that were

[00:12:50] under collar. Um, and you know, more times than not, sadly, before they get caught, they have, you

[00:12:57] know, they've done this multiple times before. Yes. And, and, and the process of grooming is,

[00:13:03] it's, it's, it's, it's the wrong word in a sense, because the word sounds so innocent,

[00:13:10] doesn't it? But actually it's not, isn't it? It's a steady drip of undermining gaslighting,

[00:13:16] um, uh, really seeking to unpick a person. It's, I always find it a very odd word, but can you,

[00:13:23] can you remember any of the things that were going on to you? So if anyone's gone through that now,

[00:13:27] they might notice the signs. Oh, yes. Um, like I said, I was the perfect candidate for him because

[00:13:32] he saw that, you know, I had no father frigging. Plus this is back in the nineties where we didn't have

[00:13:37] constant communication like we do now. We didn't know, you know, where, you know, children were at the

[00:13:42] time. There were literally commercials on at night asking parents, do you know where your children

[00:13:46] are? Cause we were latchkey kids then. And he showed a genuine interest in anything that I had to say

[00:13:54] from movies to books, to culture, to the meaning of life. And looking back on that year, his likes

[00:14:00] and dislikes began to closely parallel that, you know, a 14 year old kid. You know, he at that time

[00:14:07] was the same age I am now. And I find would find it weird if I started befriending someone who was 14,

[00:14:14] 15, 16, and then starting to like and dislike what they did simply because they did. He would buy CDs

[00:14:22] or cassettes or movies that fit into my genre and basically enveloped me in this, you know,

[00:14:30] cocoon of trust. Um, I mean, like I said, for a year, I went to his house multiple times by myself

[00:14:36] and nothing inappropriate ever happened. And I don't know if that attack was something that he

[00:14:42] planned or maybe a spontaneous event that happened. Uh, but looking back, he had my total trust.

[00:14:51] Until that moment. And it was, it was a one suddenly effect or did it become a regular thing?

[00:14:56] No, it was, uh, once after that, um, I did not see him again. So he didn't hold that physical power

[00:15:02] over me, but he still had that mental. Yes, of course. And, um, and, and now, you know, when you,

[00:15:09] when you, when you give advice to other people, it's, it, again, it sounds very trite to say this,

[00:15:15] but is your advice to say, to speak out early or what's the one critical bit of advice you would

[00:15:20] give to someone who's younger and finding himself in this state? Basically to speak out and anyone who

[00:15:25] reaches, you know, a hand of, of help for them to take that, um, put that pride away because in the end,

[00:15:32] we only get one life and it's not worth living in such anguish and pain and shame, uh, for so long.

[00:15:38] And so a lot now is to give others the moral courage to speak up, to not be afraid of what

[00:15:44] may come at them because we look at society now and people speak up against their perpetrators

[00:15:50] decades later. And what do we do? We ostracize it. We put them down. We ask questions like,

[00:15:54] well, why are you wearing that dress? Why were you drinking? Or in my case,

[00:15:58] why were you at this man's house alone for so long? And so we go to victim blaming.

[00:16:07] Yes. And that, that's a, that's such a common thing. What, what, what do you think that's about?

[00:16:11] Is that just an inability to understand or do you think it's more difficult than that?

[00:16:17] It's a hard conversation to have. It really is. And people do not like these uncomfortable

[00:16:21] conversations. You know, I mentioned I was raped. I know we like to use the word sexual assault,

[00:16:26] which is a plethora of meanings, but I use the word rape because it is a dirty, nasty,

[00:16:31] filthy four letter word. It leaves nothing ambiguous. You know what happens. And when people

[00:16:37] hear that, it makes them uncomfortable, but that's what we need is the people to tell their stories

[00:16:41] because it starts to change, uh, the way we look at sexual assault, the way we look at rape,

[00:16:47] while it's male or female. And the more people that speak up, the more that people will realize

[00:16:52] is that this sadly is an all too common issue. Yes. Yes. And that is through its power and abuse and

[00:16:59] people who are smaller than you and such like, and you know, it's, and you're absolutely right,

[00:17:04] isn't it? We've got to, we've got to create conditions where it's easier for survivors to,

[00:17:09] or survivors of this sort of experience to speak out because actually if we create a society where

[00:17:14] people are victim shamed, it's just, it's just an appalling thing. It just perpetuates the problem.

[00:17:19] And, and as you're right, the macho culture still exists, doesn't it?

[00:17:23] It does. Yeah. And so, you know, we as humans were...

[00:17:27] Sorry. Sorry, Aaron.

[00:17:29] No, I was just saying we as people are, you know, we're, we're pack animals. We have to be within

[00:17:33] that social construct and anything that will either kick us out of the pack or, you know,

[00:17:39] have those think differently of us, um, we won't do. So we'll basically go along with it. And that's

[00:17:47] also be involved that in behavior that may go against our beliefs and morals simply because

[00:17:53] everyone else is doing it.

[00:17:55] Yes. Yes. That's a, that's a, and that's a hard thing to hear, isn't it? But this is much more

[00:18:00] prevalent than we probably think. And, uh, and it could be happening anywhere in any community,

[00:18:05] in any country. Uh, and I mean, are there any signs? So are there any things that people can look

[00:18:13] out for? Cause you may not even suspect that someone's gone through an experience like this,

[00:18:18] but is there anything you notice? Do people get more removed or, uh, hold themselves differently?

[00:18:24] I mean, what, is there any sort of clues you can give?

[00:18:27] I wish there were specific signs to look for. Um, as in my case, um, even I was pretty much

[00:18:33] an introverted kid to begin with. And so this put me into my shell even more. And all I did

[00:18:38] was during my high school was work and go to school. Um, and because I wanted to keep the secret

[00:18:44] deep inside. So I showed no signs of what had happened, what had going on. And basically,

[00:18:52] honestly, life continued for me as it always does. Um, from the outside, I look like this,

[00:18:59] you know, this happy go lucky normal kid who became an adult. Uh, but deep down inside,

[00:19:05] I'm still that crying child trying to figure out what happened to him and just literally just trying

[00:19:11] to get through life day by day. Yeah. And so you speak about it now, you've mentioned that a couple

[00:19:15] of times. So what sort of, what sort of places who are you speaking to? Um, I, how I started,

[00:19:24] first of all, was, uh, several years ago, um, because in the military, cause if we talk about sexual

[00:19:30] assault and rape and our societal biases, we automatically go to male on female, we never think

[00:19:35] of males being victims of sexual assault. And in the military, as you know, a majority of the force

[00:19:42] is male. And anytime I saw literature or there were classes or education given, it was always perpetuating

[00:19:49] that female victims, uh, are only ones that can be sexually assaulted. Uh, even though the percentage

[00:19:55] of reports are female, the actual raw number of attacks are male, just so it goes, it's simply

[00:20:00] more of us. And so I decided to tell my story to let others know that you're not alone, that if I can

[00:20:07] do this and stand in front of you and, you know, tell you my deepest, darkest secret, then you can too.

[00:20:13] And eventually throughout the years, um, once my duty allowed me to, I was able to travel and speak

[00:20:19] to different organizations. And now that I'm out, I still speak to the military, but I'm also speaking

[00:20:23] to colleges and universities because just like me, you have these kids that are going out into the real

[00:20:27] world now, either military or school and they're carrying this baggage and it doesn't go away just

[00:20:32] because your environment changed. I carried it for so long and they simply may not know that help is

[00:20:38] out there. They may think that they are alone, that their situation is unique when there's so many of us

[00:20:43] that have been through the same situation. Yeah. And what type of help is out there?

[00:20:48] Uh, we have victim advocates. Uh, we have sexual assault, uh, survivor, uh, care workers and, uh,

[00:20:57] case workers, uh, that are able to, you know, point you in the right direction to get help. Uh,

[00:21:03] basically you can seek a therapist. You can see if, if it you're inclined to, uh, you know,

[00:21:08] a religious figure that will, you know, kind of guide you along the way, but someone that you trust and

[00:21:14] knowing that, okay, this person tells you, yes, I can't help you, but I can tell you someone is great.

[00:21:22] But sadly more times than not, we go to someone and they're like, well, keep it to yourself. You

[00:21:26] don't want to ruin that person's life because of a little mistake that they did. And sadly, so many

[00:21:32] survivors believe that. And that's why they keep it to themselves because they don't want to ruin

[00:21:36] this person's life because it was a quote unquote mistake. And do not fall for that. Please seek the help

[00:21:45] and it's, it's interesting, isn't it? Cause of course, you know, the two things you've just put

[00:21:48] together there are really problematical. Go to someone you trust. And, uh, and then if the person

[00:21:53] you trust is, you know, keep this under your heart, don't say anything. I mean, you know,

[00:21:57] you're almost compounding the shame, aren't you? Because actually being told what happened was wrong,

[00:22:01] but also your response to it is wrong. So, um, you know, one of the things we have to do is so ever,

[00:22:07] you know, a child of any age comes to us and tells us something we have to, however difficult it is,

[00:22:11] is at least take that serious seriously and, you know, pursue it or investigate it or alert people

[00:22:18] who have more power authority over this sort of area. It's not okay just to think that every single

[00:22:24] child telling a story is telling a story. It's not, it's not, it's not safe, is it?

[00:22:29] No, it isn't. And sadly, you know, we have so many families, you know, who have children that are abused

[00:22:35] by a family member and because they are family, we're going to keep this in house. You're going

[00:22:40] to sleep on the rug and you're not going to say a word about it. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, yeah,

[00:22:47] you're absolutely right. It's absolutely true. The point you made about stranger danger is actually,

[00:22:52] um, neighbor, uh, well, people, you know, danger, isn't it? That's the, that's the thing. Um,

[00:22:57] it's, it's horrifying and it's, it's something we need to talk about. And if people want to find out

[00:23:02] more about you and your story and the work that you do, how, how can we get ahold of you?

[00:23:06] Oh, yes. You can contact me through my website, um, 18 winters. That's one eight winters.com

[00:23:12] or you can email me at Aaron stone at 18 winters.com. That's absolutely brilliant. And obviously we'll

[00:23:19] put links to the websites and such like, and, you know, keep doing the work you're doing because

[00:23:22] it's massively important. Thank you so much for spending time with us tonight.

[00:23:27] Thank you, sir. And thank you for having me.

[00:23:28] Yeah. You take care.

[00:23:30] Hi, thanks for listening. Hopefully that was a useful and interesting episode.

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