Andy Brown - Managing your Emotional Overdraft

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[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Hi and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled. It's my joy today to welcome someone who has the best name in the world.

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an emacron remember, it's an emacron pronounce. I'm joined today by Andy Brown. I mean, Andy,

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_02]: it's like you've designed that name for the media. How are you? I started a group on LinkedIn a long time ago called

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Andy Brown. I think there's about 100 offers in there so far. It's easy to pronounce and

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_02]: fairly common. I'm delighted to be on Russell. Thank you. Particularly because I heard a comment on one of

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_02]: your previous podcast and it was something to the effect of recharging doesn't just mean resting.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not just resting but having doing something with meaning can recharge you as well. So I love

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_02]: their idea of recharging can be doing something meaningful rather than just doing something passive.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It was a lovely thought. I thought if we can get anything half as good in our conversation, I'd be delighted.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure we will. I remember my old mentor talking about the idea of relaxation and that was a

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: completely serious idea that there is rest in the charge or there is sleep or there is doing something.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: The idea of relaxation is quite a string or connotations. I don't know why not tell this

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: well first of all, I can tell by the accent you're from this fair aisle. It's just a real

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_01]: novelty so it's lovely to talk to a fellow Brit. Where are the country all year?

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Well I'm wrong the South Coast and I live in a place called Dorset which is

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah sort of 150 miles from South West of London I suppose you'd say

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: to a beautiful part of the countryside and I'm a walker. I think a lot when I'm walking and I walk with friends

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: so it's perfect for walking down here. Are you near the wet bit? It's always wet, you're not

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_02]: seen. I don't know if I'm in the sea. I don't know if I'm in the sea. I'm not far from the sea. I

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: am alive and I both love swimming so when we can in a summer we go swimming in the sea after work

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: which is a glorious thing to do. It's a christney day christney day so it was never the various

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: discharge of the water company so are you not a fear that's sort of thing. There's lots of

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_02]: things to be afraid of I don't worry about that. Very good. Well tell us a little bit about your

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: South Andy. So my main my day job is a board advisor I'm an on-exec and board advisor

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I work with creative and marketing businesses but my background is running advertising agencies

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I started off in market research and ended up as a planner in an advertising agency and then

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: running advertising agencies and for the last 10 years I've been advising so when you get

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: too old to do it you just become an advisor which is what I've been doing but in the course of that

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_02]: the how I came across the topic of emotional overdraft which is what I love talking about most

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_02]: is I conducted some research being researcher and discovered that this idea was pretty universal

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_02]: so in the last couple of years I wrote a book called Emotional Overdraft and that was published in January.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay so before we dive into what emotional overdraft is shall I ask the question whether it's

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: linked to any way or shape or form to emotional intelligence which many people would have heard of?

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, not yes and no. Yes in the sense that it it says that our feelings matter, our feelings

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: are how we experience the world and so emotions of that sense it is it is similar to that

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's not not directly related to emotional intelligence I I wanted an idea of of the sort of

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: business so the idea of overdraft everyone does with overdraft is very tangible,

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: expensive way of borrowing and then emotions are those sort of feelings that are experience of how we

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah our experience of work and of life and I wanted to merge them together and I just felt

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_02]: the idea of borrowing from our own emotions, borrowing from our own costs felt like a good thing

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: so it's in the same patch it's in a patch that says just because it's difficult to measure doesn't

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_02]: mean it's not important to think about yes but it's not that there's a sort of a 10 diagram with

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_01]: the purpose was some commonalities so I'm guessing there might be some commonalities

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: with burnout as well utterly utterly that so so the definition of my definition of emotional overdraft

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: is when you're subsidizing the success of your business at your own mental or physical cost

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_02]: right and that's when you subsidize your business and the research I did showed that

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_02]: on this everyone who leads or runs a business is to some extent subsidizing the success at their

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_02]: own physical or mental cost and so that could be neglecting their family it could be neglecting

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: their health it could be eating badly it could be not resting properly it could be not switching off

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: it could be when you go and holiday always checking your phone that and those are all contributing

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: factors towards exhaustion over well and burnout so it's definitely related to burnout and

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_02]: ultimately burn and not I guess it's where it ends up yes I guess that's emotionally bust

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: is it burnout in a sense I think you've got to the point where the bank's called in the debt

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: the emotional bank is called in the debt and the interesting thing is the body knows I love

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: this phrase the body knows I was talking to someone recently about this who who was very ill

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and went to see the doctor and the doctor said it's you're exhausted your body is shutting down

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: he was having blackouts he was fainting he said I'm not exhausted the businesses go really well

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: employ more people than ever before we're making more profits we've we've set up in the state

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: he couldn't accept his brain couldn't accept that the his emotional and overdraft

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: had gotten to the point of damage he was self-medicating without alcohol he told me he was drinking

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_02]: two bottles of wine a night he had no relationship with his partner because of the drinking

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and because he was always at work but his brain refused to recognize what was going on his body

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: started shutting down the body went I'm gonna protect you if you won't protect yourself

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_02]: so it's really interesting that when you have when you get to the point of burnout

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_02]: you may not even realize you're getting there you may not even realize you're you're

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_02]: or be able to accept but that's what's going on so I love the idea that the body knows and that's

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_02]: a useful thing to look out for it's giving clues there was a problem isn't it with some

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: things because there's a sort of mechanism at how much to working hard to having burnout in

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: some great cases and to you know the whole idea of toxic positivity and such like this there's

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: a sort of there's a sort of a counter movement almost where people are rebelling against this

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_01]: idea of almost being weak you see this sort of concept is something anathema to you know strong

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: people because actually strong people don't experience these but then the people's often I think

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_02]: was vulnerable to the sorts of issues yeah they absolutely do and I'm a nice specter over 50

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_02]: over 50 business owners so it's not a huge sample but a very representative sample enough

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and bar one all of them said when when we described the symptoms agreed they had a

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_02]: emotional overdraft to some extent there were ability to pay it back quickly was the difference

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_02]: between them some people were able to dip into their overdraft and then pay it back again some

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_02]: people traded and overdraft and the currency I described but the currency of an emotional overdraft

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: is resilience and as your resilience depletes you know you talk about there's a lot in

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_02]: in your podcast of course as your resilience depletes your ability to make decisions

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_02]: decreases to your ability to bounce back your ability to make good decisions and so on but they

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_02]: all suffer and that can that can be a really really damaging and I think those people who

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I see them on licks in all the time it's you know I get up two hours before I go to sleep I

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: exercise by five in the morning I've got nine kids and I'm in the perfect parents and

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_02]: you think that's not true that isn't true and what's interesting I'm having launched my

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: emotional overdraft book baby into the world when I get back is some feedback and what people have

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_02]: to me is that the what they know it is is that sometimes people who think they don't have an emotional

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_02]: overdraft might not but they might be drawing on someone else's emotional overdraft they might

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: be drawing from the long suffering partner or they might be withdrawing from their community

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and contributing less than they used to or so somewhere that cost occurs but in most cases

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_02]: we look at we look at successful people we go oh what made them successful and this

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_02]: causation correlation isn't there so we look at but they were incredibly successful that must be

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_02]: the way you become successful but there are hundreds of other examples of people who've done

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_02]: exactly the same who haven't been successful so it's really difficult to draw some conclusions from

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_02]: looking at George Soros or someone who's done it you know theoretically it's astonishing you

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_02]: well for the design themselves because they're normally exceptions and they're not exceptional

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_02]: but we can't distill that down in any particular way so yeah the people that go you know I get

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_02]: up really early in the morning I power through I think and not the people to be listening to we know

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_02]: that social media is a lie we know that people curate their own presence online so the other thing

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_02]: is that it's there isn't McKizmo associated with it but there's also an overview of the term

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_02]: so once the term comes to exist like burnout there are people who've had a rough weekend and they

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: said well you're not because burnout is a very specific and that's when the well it's a very

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: specific definitions to burn out you might be overwhelmed you might be exhausted you might just be tired

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_02]: but we tend to use we tend to use words they're coming to vote don't they and then they become

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_02]: slightly overused and I think there's something we have to be very careful of with with burnout

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a fascinating idea of semantic degradation which is the thing you're talking about

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: is really fascinating and if you look at how many words like stress that's already a meaning

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: as term I mean mental health going that way isn't it actually it's sort of meaning it doesn't

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: have any sort of true value definitely resilience burnout as you say so it's I think we all

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_01]: need this to refresh the idea on a constant basis so I love the analogy I think it's a brilliant

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of concept where so you started the research with a clear idea and you're

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: mind to find out whether research was true or did you talk to the people and actually this

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: idea of merges part of it well as a business advisor so I have at any one time I have half

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: it as an client's I work maybe maybe a couple more that broadly that and I don't have much

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: shown but I'm speaking to other businesses all the time and I'm a conferences and so on and the

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: pattern of I described it as the invisible line in the profit and loss and if you imagine a

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: profit and loss you've got the revenues at the top you've got the costs at the bottom and then

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: you've got the profit right at the bottom what's left and on the bottom right hand side if you

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: look at a year is the profit for the year and I kept thinking of this thing it's like an invisible

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: line in the coffers and invisible cost line because you may think you've had a profitable year

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: but what what's it cost you what's it cost in terms of your emotional overdraft and it's almost

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: impossible to quantify so you can't answer the question but what appears to be successful and

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_02]: profitable activity there's this hidden cost line that's happening and it could be your relationship

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_02]: or some of things I've been talking about already your health your relationships your

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: you know you come home and there's a message saying you know I'll see you never I'm out of here

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_02]: that these things genuinely happen and it's so what's the real cost what's the subsidy

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: of that profitability I think that's I saw that when I was talking to owners again and again

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and owners and leaders if you lead a team you'll recognize the same thing this kind of self sacrifice

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and I saw this happening again and again I thought this doesn't have to be this isn't inevitable

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_02]: because I also see people who run a business or run leader team who are not sacrificing everything

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_02]: who who dip into overdraft and then dip out again they've got a very healthy relationship with

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_02]: their emotional bank and so what's the difference between those people so my research really was

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_02]: trying to find out how many people dip into this what I subsequently called an overdraft

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and then at what people's relationship is with this is fairly simple piece of research but

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: so I didn't take in a theory I suppose I wanted to test the theory yes but it's important to

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: to balance the equation it'll just give us a pun and talk about there will be people in the

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_01]: world who do what they do and they're in credit all the time and some people have emotional

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_01]: reserves as well so there's a feeling that well is there's a sort of a theory in business that

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: we always have to talk about the downside but there are lots of people who do do it well and

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I've met lots of leaders who are good leaders who actually are fine about this and I think

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the point you're taking and I'm going to let me guess the point you're going to make

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_01]: so certainly I'm lying and says it's as easy to do well as it is to do it badly so

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_02]: this is quite interesting it's going to say yes and it's quick as it can build up it can

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02]: be depleted you know you can get rid of it because what I argue when I first wrote the book

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and I only have a written one book so this thing is interesting I did have a couple of publishers

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: who were interested in it but the one I went with said where's the rest of the book and I said

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_02]: what do you mean I've written up this research and I've done the theory and I've explained what it is

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and what emotions are and I was very proud of it and they said well but the other half of the book

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_02]: is telling us what we do about this Andy what are we going to do about this how do we reduce it

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: look get rid of it so I had to read that's what took the two years I had to write the second half

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_02]: of the book and what became apparent is that most of the challenges in an emotional overdraft

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: come from behaviour their behaviours or habits that we build up and lots of them are around

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: trusting other people jumping in and being you know taking things on ourselves expect expectation

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_02]: feeling that we should be you know running a business should be difficult there's a load of habits

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_02]: that if we can recognise them and unpick them then we can start to do something about it and

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: absolutely you're right it is possible to run a business without having to subsidise it at your

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_02]: own cost and there are lots of people who don't really and they and they're worth looking out so

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah it's and you're totally right but most people get into kind of getting into the flow habits

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_02]: of very hot ones they create themselves a very hard to break and it is you know once you

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: donate to the rubber habit isn't that it is exactly the very definition of a habit exactly yeah yeah

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah so so let's let's think of this through them so I'm guessing you have some sort of

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_01]: idea about looking at the risks looking at some sort of audit is it like a situational type thing

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I was at more of a sort of personal questionnaire about how circumstances tell me how that might work

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: so I have a sister who's too easy younger than me and when we were kids or teenagers I suppose she

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: used to get Cosmo magazine which apparently still exists Cosmo positive magazine and I'd loved

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02]: the 50 questions that would tell you if your boyfriend will still be with you at the end of the

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_02]: summer that type they had the Cosmo quiz it was known as it was brilliant so being a simple soul

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought I'm going to do a Cosmo quiz for a motion overdraft so when online a donation overdraft

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a self assessment with 50 questions they all yes no questions and what it's designed to

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_02]: do is help you understand where your emotional overdraft is occurring so there are 10 drivers

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I've identified from the research, 10 primary habits and this will allow you to understand

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_02]: broadly where you're I mean it's you know there's any 50 questions but it certainly seems to

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_02]: fairly robust in terms of identifying where your bunches of activity are and that's

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_02]: that's proven so helpful for people because if you do nothing else listening to this

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_02]: if you find yourself in the situation where you are

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_02]: paying the price for your success stop and recognise that it's an emotional overdraft

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_02]: if you just stop and recognise and go yeah that could be the emotional overdraft for

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and Russell talking about just stopping and recognising it will mean you stand the chance of doing

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: something differently breaking habits is about pausing and recognising and the second thing is if you

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: do the self assessment which is free then you've got to you might start to understand where your

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_02]: where your overdraft starts to occur most and then you can look out for those situations as

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_02]: they occur so you can anticipate them almost before they occur and that's how I do it it it's

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_02]: it's proven to be you don't need to buy the book for that it's online and it's free and help yourself

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_02]: if it helps people then that's my job done and it comes back to some of the first

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: principles we talk about in psychology which is like everything and like you can take the

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: audit you can say it um fascinating but you have to make a choice to engage you'll you have to

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: make that choice to actually do something about it and there are a lot of people who spend a lot

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: money on self health books and you know consuming resources of all different shapes and sizes

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and they don't get any better and they blame the books whereas actually the point is you have

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: to make the choice to do something about it I think it's Jim's clear that used to talk about

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_01]: something like that and the topic but the idea of choice which didn't he nickmister that from

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: the author of tiny habits was never course yeah and he nicknamed everybody nicked everything from

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: the start course so a back to signage so uh that's because that's where it really all comes from

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: all positive psychology comes from and I'm sure there's an Egyptian geological Egyptologist who

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: actually thought about it three thousand years before then and because some of this is just

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_01]: it's what we actually mean by common sense that fact is nothing changes in this in

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: a good choice to do something about it and that's for us and that's and that's the simplest

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and hardest thing to do absolutely right and I think what I've encouraged people to do is to

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: get help and I don't mean rational help I mean involve people in this process for you I love

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_02]: the idea of the personal board and like you can come to these board has sort of a sort of

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: mixture of experts in it where your personal board you could have a mentor, a coach, someone who's

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: a peer who does a similar job to you you could have a cheerleader that it's not a new idea but

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you can have a group of people and let them know that they're in your board and let them know what

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: they're dealing with and most people are incredibly flattered to be asked and will help you

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's why I say when you notice it happening then you can go to someone it could be your partner

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_02]: but sometimes it's hard to talk to your partner but find some people who are inclined towards

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_02]: you have good will towards you and and who you like and respect and trust and get them involved in the

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: process and I think I see that working I see that working all the time it's not quite like having

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: some I don't know anything about economics and I must but I know that you have a sponsor or a

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_02]: someone who is sort of there on the end of the phone think of that because it's really hard to

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_02]: change behavior it's simple but it's really hard and so get all the help you can get all the

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: support encouragement you can and one of the things that you should commonly use to

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: supposedly by non-experts is to sort of foster this idea of willpower but actually willpower is

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_01]: a part of your emotional deficit case and it actually funds the overdraft sorry it's a depletely

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: overdraft it has to be done that's one of those strange financial terms isn't that where it's upside

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_02]: down the effect it's completely wrong isn't it yeah I think willpower is not the answer discipline

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: might be a better way of thinking about it I think if you can be if you can be disciplined

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02]: if you can that's how you build habits habits form themselves by through through repetitive behavior

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: think about new patterns yes exactly programming new patterns so I think discipline is a

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_02]: better way of thinking about it willpower is willpower is setting you up to fail because if you

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_02]: don't you know if you have a bad day and if you have your emotional overdraft doesn't get cleared

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and you willpower let you down well so is that failure no it's just it's just an old habit going

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_02]: look at me I've got you know I've got the power to keep going and I need to do more work on it and

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_01]: that's okay I think broadly we sort of discounted the idea of willpower I think once working

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: memory fellow partners a sort of concept which willpower was linked to I think actually the

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: hope that began to dissipate but but you know people will come to this is stubborn term though isn't

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: well yes but but but it's hard it's not the English language because actually because of that

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: thing we're talking about earlier is terms you come so meaning this meaning this quite quickly

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean you just have to go with what you've got sometimes don't you and I know sometimes I

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: catch myself thinking it's not called that anymore just having to get a grip on myself I'm going

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you know that'll do because you've got to have you got to use the people's language where they come with

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_01]: you and when people mean often when people were talking about willpower the last year talking

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: about where's the energy coming from to fund you know to fund the work that needs to be done

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and sometimes it's disciplined but it is sometimes it's motivation of inspiration or it's

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: it's an external source or I mean even guilt could be very powerful thing to actually fund

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and revenue well as it has always these things are now a short part of it now but the strength

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_02]: of the strength and the weakness of the self you know when I learn to do SWAT analysis

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_02]: every strength is weakness every opportunities are threat and that's that's the nature of

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_02]: things but I think you're right and I liked the in this sort of world of Instagram I saw one

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: the other day but I really liked it and it said if you've only got 30% of your capacity available to

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_02]: you on a any given day and you give that 30% you've given 100% and I thought that's a very forgiving

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_02]: generous way of thinking about you know if you don't have all of your capacity available to you

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: give what capacity you have that's okay go to bed get up the next day and go again is okay

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the things which is quite interesting here is the sort of narrative we have as well

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and some of the mindset stuff we talk about I mean I talked to a lot of people who are in

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_01]: employees of organizations and they get themselves highly covered up in the organization of working

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_01]: long hours they're very stressed and I love to say to them and this is actually sometimes shocks

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_01]: you know you'll do all this work you work 120 hours a week for a good money but then one day

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: you'll be dispensed with or your services will be no longer required in three weeks after you left

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_01]: the organization not no idea who you were and we often have the specials employees this

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: inflated sense of they can't do without me oh you know if I don't do this the project will fail

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: blah blah blah and unless you're working is a you know a surgeon on the whole most of the time

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: people are burned out nobody dies when your efforts aren't good enough it's really quite odd

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't work with the one of the wings of the NHS and said that once and they said people literally

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01]: did die but you know what I mean the people who are most most likely to burn out are people like

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_01]: lawyers and I mean the burnout term was never meant for people who are lawyers that's not the point

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_01]: of it for example you didn't talk about lawyers when you're talking about burnout when they're

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: so that is pretty well just under overwhelm and that's just a choice yes it's not just a choice

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's a choice because just to just it's sort of a small thing it's a it's a big thing but

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_02]: it's definitely a choice undoubtedly true and that's the premise really that's behind behind all

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_02]: all of my thinking here I once worked in a big marketing company and the header production

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_02]: used to say there's always time for a reprint and what he meant was never how big and how

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_02]: rushed and how pressurized the job was if we got something wrong when we printed it for a client

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and it was on the day of delivery he said somehow we'll find a way to correct that and reprint

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: the whole damping again and that's kind of nothing is so apart from for surgeons so terminal

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: that you need to be the person that keeps sacrificing and I think emotional overdraft occurs when

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_02]: working in a business as much as if you own a business and that company has no collective memory

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_02]: it will not thank you for it so you know it will not look after you the company will not look

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: after you you have to look after you. I strongly suspect there's more overdraft in the

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: goods of the organization because I strongly suspect that a lot of emotional overdraft comes from

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_01]: or leadership and that's you know something that's I mean I'm sure you find the people that you're

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_01]: with when you called into organizations as I do to solve this some sort of spirit's problem

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: it's always or I don't think I've ever found a problem it's not you know at the door somewhere

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: of the leader, a senior leader of the most the leader at the top there are great leaders don't

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: get me wrong but there's some heanness leadership crimes that we see going on every single day

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_02]: you know but we didn't teach people very well we don't coach people very well we don't train

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_02]: our leaders we promote people who are very good at doing their job to become leaders

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_02]: whereas in fact we should you know they're doing their job but doesn't make them good leaders and

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a it's a challenge so it's definitely there it's definitely it's a universal challenge I

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_02]: think as a as a concept but you know you gotta focus on an audience so I focus on leaders

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and and fabulous absolutely right well it's a tribe like it and so talk to me about where I

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: could get the book amateur costs well you don't think about how much of cost because there'll be

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: different different places that's the future of the square's my best today yeah and I've already found

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: at Namaz and the bought me several copies so that's that's I know it's there and I know

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a say you have 41 five style copies which either means the book's really good

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_02]: oh you've got a brand of 41 people yeah yeah I know the reviews are the reviews and a jit

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I get great feedback and the joy I'd encourage anyone if you can write a book it

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: it's if you've got something to say have a go because the feedback I get is

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: let's me know it's working and that's it's a total total gift yeah you can get an online

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_02]: you get in a waterstone wherever you buy your books you can get it there and if you want

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_02]: lots more I write lots and lots of articles about this sort of stuff and they're on

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_02]: emotionaloetraff.com or follow me at finally on LinkedIn and one of the 120 Andy Browns on there

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: but you'll find me and the video wants to find out the right me then we should sort of

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_01]: anyone here in the podcast can let you do either of us that would be great um okay then so before

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_01]: we finish for the day and I'm just conscious of time rolling by and you've been incredibly

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_01]: generous for you at the time so what we're final thought for people before you had off

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_01]: back down to the the seaside to stop whilst swimming in the sea again.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02]: You used to just be called swimming didn't it not that long ago um I think the thought would be

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: recognised the emotional overdraft happens to you that it occurs and try and spot it when

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_02]: it's occurring try and spot when emotional overdraft is happening because if you do that would just

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: give you enough pause to maybe do something differently and that can change everything.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things I'd add that to that is actually sometimes the easiest thing to do is spot

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: it in others as well because it's it's much easier to see it in others isn't it? That's and

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd be honest with you. And it's been an absolute joy um and testing thank you for joining me

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_01]: it's been absolutely marvelous I love the idea I love the concept bought the book and he'd all

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: need now is the t-shirt and by the company and then you and I have sorted great talking to your

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_01]: asshole good to talk you take care. Hi thanks for listening hopefully that was a useful and interesting

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_01]: episode as I said earlier you can support our work by leaving your review which does drive

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_01]: enhanced exposure or you can donate on our site which is at qe theod.com you can purchase our series

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_01]: of books all about unraveling resilience leadership management and anxiety at qe theod.com

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[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: info at qe theod.com hopefully there's something there for you catch you next time around