Antonio Michael Downing on Identity, Migration, and Resilience Through Art

[00:00:03] Hi, I'm Dr. Russell Thackeray and welcome to Resilience Unravelled, a podcast with new ideas, new thoughts, and new thinking about resilience. Guests with remarkable stories, products and services that can really power up your own mindset and resilience. You can also go to our site for more information, to ask questions, or to access some of our resources at resilienceunravelled.com. Let's get started.

[00:00:32] Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Resilience Unravelled. And today, a guest beaming in a smiley sort of way through the camera, me and looking in front of me is Ephraim Ebstein, which is three fantastic names. Someone's gifted you with three amazing names there, Antonio Michael. So first of all, how are you? Oh, I'm doing wonderful.

[00:00:56] It's a very long winter in Canada, and it's finally turned into a very hot spring and summer to come. So we are all out and peacocking about the town. It's beautiful. Are you? And what does peacocking about the town look like? It's more like what we don't wear than what we do wear. We don't wear mittens and kind of toques and woolly hats and big duck-down jackets and stuff like that.

[00:01:25] We can show a bit of leg. Goodness me. And the sunshine is really great as well. So we feel a bit unleashed in this period of the year. And you're Toronto, is that right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, one of my colleagues lives there and works in Toronto. So he often talks to me about how winter can be quite brutal and then summer can be beautiful. Yeah, it's really a dichotomy. And we do try to pack all our joy into those summer months. Good.

[00:01:54] Look, tell me a little bit about who you are. Yeah, I am. First of all, I think my grandmother, Miss Exley, as we would call her, I'm her grandchild. And what comes with that is I grew up on the island, the Commonwealth Island of Trinidad and Tobago. Two islands, one nation, Trinidad. Which, for those that don't know their geography, that's right off the coast of Venezuela at the very bottom of the Caribbean.

[00:02:22] But very much a British Empire colony. And we went to school the British way and we learned about the kings and dings and lords and ladies of the past. And so it was a very strange thing because the life I grew up with outside was tropical and lots of exotic animals, etc. And in school, it was very much, it was, we could have been a suburb of a British city somewhere.

[00:02:50] And that's informed who I've become. But mostly it was my grandmother. She was a very brilliant lady, very compassionate lady. And so she taught me two really big, gave me two really big gifts. One was she taught me how to read because her eyes were bad. She was about 80 when we started living with her. And so she would always read her King James Bible. And so I learned to read at a very young age.

[00:03:17] I was about four and four and a half when I started reading her Proverbs and Psalms for her. And then she taught me how to sing because she was always singing. Rose with a song, went to bed with a song. Bad day, she had a song for that. Good day, she had a song for that. And so usually Anglican hymnal hymns. So again, the British context. And really that kind of shaped the rest of my life.

[00:03:45] I, she passed away when I was 11. I immediately was thrust into the frozen wilds of Canada, like blizzards and wolves in the trees and bears at the dump. When you go to drop your trash off. And, and really that was kind of the most formative event for me because you can imagine Dr. Thackeray.

[00:04:08] If, if everything that they would ask you like to tell us about yourself, you would talk about your, where you're from, what music you like, how you dressed, you know, what your dad did for a living, what you studied at school. What if all of that were just yanked away from you? And yet you still existed. Yeah. So it would cause you to wonder what is really identity and what is really belonging and what is really a self.

[00:04:36] And in a way I've been wondering about those things for the rest of my life. And really the, the mediums I chose to do that were the two that my grandmother gave me through music. I was a songwriter and a singer and a performer and, and in the most recent iteration through writing, through books, through art. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. So why were you thrust from Trinidad? Did you say Trinidad? Trinidad. Yeah. Yeah. Why go from there to Canada?

[00:05:04] Was that with something to do with parents? Yeah. It, I grew up with my grandmother and when she passed away, many of her children were living in Canada. And a lot of this, this is a history of the Commonwealth here, but folks who grew up in the colonies and the Commonwealth from Nigeria, Kenya, Jamaica, Trinidad, Hong Kong.

[00:05:29] And the dream is always to go to, go to the West, go to Britain, go to Canada. In our minds, we viewed it as the land of milk and honey. And so because a land where there was more opportunity, more, more wealth. And so my aunt Joan and my father already lived in Canada. And so they, they saw my grandmother passing and I think they probably already had it as a plan, but they didn't want to take us from my grandmother.

[00:05:59] So as soon as she passed away, they were like, aha, this is our chance to bring those kids to where they'll have an opportunity for a better life. And kids being my older brother and I, and so, so that's what drove it at that time. But it was, I got to tell you as a 11 year old, it was a very shocking transition from, it was a matter of days from being in a tropical rainforest to being in the middle of a blizzard.

[00:06:30] Yeah. I'm guessing, and I may be wrong here, so forgive my false assumption here, but honestly. Yeah. I don't know, I imagine you were into cricket and then. Oh yeah. And then suddenly you're into a strange country where they don't, they don't play civil life sports. They sort of, they play rounders and baseball and basketball and all that nonsense stuff that is strange. Yeah, exactly. You can assume that we did all the British things.

[00:06:56] So yes, and it was rather shocking because even though Canada was also part of the British Commonwealth, it was very different because Canada had a governor general, whereas Trinidad right up until I was born actually had a governor. So it still didn't have sort of autonomy and parliaments and laws and vote voting and that stuff.

[00:07:20] And so I think Canada still felt, actually felt further from the sort of British derived system that I came up with. Yeah. So you get dumped in this strange place. I don't say dumped, I mean, we live kind of there. But so how does an 11 year old boy, probably pre-pubet, puberty, how does he begin to cope with that situation? It was, one could argue I'm still coping. Yeah.

[00:07:51] It was shocking. I remember the one of the biggest moments was icicles, something as simple as ice outside of the freezer that didn't melt. This was a great and wondrous mystery to me and my brother. We literally would sit there waiting for it to melt only, and to our horror, it would continue, it would grow.

[00:08:13] And this is one of the more trivial adjustments, but I think what it forced was almost a reinvention of myself, almost a translation of before and after. And the great George Steiner, who wrote this sort of one of the cornerstone books on translation called Babel, appropriately. Absolutely.

[00:08:37] He says that when you translate, you don't do a one-to-one literal, you do a new version of the original. So it's almost an act of creation. And so I would say that's how I coped as a little boy. First of all, they thought in the little schoolhouse in the tiny town where I landed, the teachers thought that Antonio was way too exotic a name and the kids might tease me.

[00:09:05] So suddenly I went from being called Tony or Antonio as a kid to Michael, my middle name. Oh, really? Yeah. And that's why I've kind of claimed them back as Antonio Michael now. But suddenly I became Michael. And so it's almost like when the name they called you goes away, it's almost like you are, it's easy to imagine yourself as an entirely new person.

[00:09:27] So I learned how to, one of the things I've been thinking about a lot recently, because I'm writing a new novel in a Trinidadian voice. And I realized, oh, I think in Canadian. And that started when I was 11, because I thought, oh, I have to learn to speak this new way. And it took a very long time to not have all these inflections from the Caribbean. And yeah, a new version of myself.

[00:09:56] And I think this is what began my love affair with art, because in theater, in poetry, in songs, in books, I could actually see how narrative is created. And I thought, oh, this is so interesting. I'm creating a narrative for my life now. My life is new. The stories they told me about my life before this moment don't apply anymore.

[00:10:22] And the new stories were just, you can imagine, I came to Northern Ontario, which is very rural. And a lot of the Anishinaabeg Indigenous folks have a heavy presence in that area. So I would encounter that culture at the same time while encountering sort of mainstream Canadian culture. And both were just very different than anything I'd seen.

[00:10:49] And it put me in a mode of invention, where I was always trying out different ways of being. And I could do that because I was completely disconnected from the way of being that came before. That's interesting. A couple of points. I've worked a lot in Africa and you often find people with extremely complicated names. And in China and the Far East as well. As soon as they become in contact with a British person, they become known as Bob or some Fred.

[00:11:18] And it's really interesting how many people from those worlds. And you'll say, it's Bob, is that your real name? They say, no, this is my name, but British people can't say it. And it is that sense of they almost have two personas. They have their work life, which is Bob. And they have their real life, which is the name that it represents. And we know this idea of nominative determinism, which is your name, almost sets up your life, isn't it? And people that change names often have that sense of dislocation of identity.

[00:11:47] So it's also a case that people who move countries and continents, or especially such an extreme move, they tend to keep their roots back where they were, don't they? And they always hark back to that place. And if they're going to celebrate their difference, they become almost, not an extreme version, but almost a bigger version of where they came from. I often see these people relocated to Britain from Nigeria, for example, and they become massively Nigerian.

[00:12:13] And they eat Nigerian food and they really embrace their cultural background. And often they're embracing a cultural background, which is very different to the Nigeria of today, because Nigeria of today has moved on. So I just wonder if you've ever gone back, whether you've seen that yourself. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think about this a lot and I have gone back. And what you find, of course, is exactly what you've described. The Trinidad in my head is kind of this idealized Garden of Eden.

[00:12:44] And when I go back, first of all, the Trinidad in my head does not exist. It's gone. And there's a whole new Trinidad that I don't recognize and that doesn't recognize me. Yeah. Because or they recognize me as something foreign. Yeah. No matter how much I might think of myself in Canada is very Trinidadian. When I go there, I'm very Canadian. And so there's this. So you don't fit in either place.

[00:13:13] And that's weird then, isn't it? That is, I believe that, and especially kids that leave in this interesting period between about nine and 13. Because like you said, most people, if they're older, they cling to the past. So my brother, who is just three years older, much more connected to Trinidad than I was.

[00:13:37] So I think that period where your sense of self hasn't quite been fully hardened and internalized, you're old enough to never forget the old place. But you're not old enough to cling to it. You're old enough actually to adjust to the new place. And I think there are a lot of people who migrate in that period and we become part of neither and somewhat both. But really what we become is a third thing. Yes.

[00:14:06] A third thing that exists between. And I think that really shaped my consciousness in a lot of the things I've done in my life. Because what I think a lot of my work has been marked by is a deep flexibility. A deep ability to simply adjust so much to a new environment that I almost seem to have multiple personalities. But it served me really well because I was playing in bands in the music world.

[00:14:36] But then I was going to university and there weren't many people that overlapped there. Then I started working in my corporate career at BlackBerry, the famous handheld device, the sort of proto smartphone. And no one from there overlapped with my music life. And so it almost felt like at one point when I was playing shows, I called it the time of the two jackets.

[00:15:01] So I would have a business like navy blue blazer and I'd be doing meetings. And then I'd go home, change into some sort of shiny performing jacket. And then I'd be doing concerts. And the interesting tie between is both were a performance. And so what it locked into in my head is how much of identity is something we perform. And when you... Sorry, go ahead. Let quickly carry on.

[00:15:30] Yeah, no, I was saying when you... When you grow up in the same place and you never change, you don't notice that. You think I am who I am and this is who I am. I'm not performing. There's something that suggests almost a disingenuousness to performing identity. But then when you move and you change and you have the experience I have, what is that? Almost everything we call ourselves can shift and change over time, especially when we're younger.

[00:16:00] It's actually a thing we learn to speak a certain way. We learn to... Just this morning, I was thinking of the British novelist Zadie Smith, who grew up in Northwest London. So very Jamaican, very like Caribbean descent area, but then went to Cambridge and suddenly spoke very differently than she did when she grew up in Northwest London. And yet she...

[00:16:25] I never sense any sense of inauthenticity from her, even though the way she speaks hasn't... Is completely disconnected from the way she spoke right up until she was probably 18 years old. So, yeah. I think that's really interesting. And it's also interesting in terms of resilience, this ability to celebrate your difference and stand out because being distinctive is a...

[00:16:50] It's a superpower in a funny sort of way, but you also have to be able to fit in because you have to be able to manipulate the world and adapt and live in a world in which you have to get along. And I think it's interesting. There's a lot of... I'm not a fan of the sort of current definitions of authenticity, which is you just be yourself wherever you are. And I've always believed in this idea of that you have different... You call them performances. I call them psychology persona, the same sort of idea.

[00:17:15] And I get this because I used to be a professional musician and I used to travel because I used to work in the corporate world. And I used to get in my car with my suit on and I used to get in the car and drive to London to go to a show, for example. And I used to get changed in the car. And as I was coming down to this court, my suit would come off, my tie would come off, my shirt would come off. I had no clothes on and I'd be in my black shirt. And so by the time I arrived in the West End of London, I was a musician again. Yes.

[00:17:43] And then people who saw me as a musician never saw me as a business person. And people who saw me as a business person never saw me as a... And I never mixed the two worlds together. Because I think that... And it was once that I did. And that was incredibly uncomfortable to have mixed those two worlds together. You know, I really get that. And I think because you become your best version of yourself in both places, don't you? Absolutely. When you think about it, people are always changing clothes and becoming different people.

[00:18:13] The way you dress when you go to the office, you dress a certain way, you act a certain way, you speak a certain way. If you see that same person from the office out for a night on the town with the girls or the boys, dress a different way, speak a different way. You may not even recognize them at first when you see them. And the same thing if we're going to church on Easter Sunday or a family gathering. We're always changing our clothes and becoming other people.

[00:18:40] Because I tend to think that Mr. Shakespeare is very correct in saying that all the world's a stage. And we are actually almost always doing a performance. Although a lot of people are very troubled by this because we seem to have an idea of identity being this very fixed thing. And actually in practice it's very fluid.

[00:19:05] I just think it's scary for a lot of people to think of it as fluid because then a lot of people derive a lot of security from the idea that this is who I am. This is what I do. It never changes. It is fixed and solid. But if that solidness were to thaw and melt as Hamlet says, we might find ourselves on very shaky ground.

[00:19:29] And so I think there's an inherent fright to identity being spoken of as the way it actually is. But I think it's very core for resilience because for me I also, like from a parental support point of view, I grew up with a very old grandmother. She passed away. I then lived with my aunt and I went to six high schools from the time I came to Canada to the time I graduated.

[00:19:58] So a lot of upheaval in my life from the time my grandmother passed away and not a lot of my parents who I know and love, but they never raised me. At no point was I ever under their care. And so as you can understand, this creates a very insecure background to grow up in.

[00:20:20] And yet I managed to have a really great go to school, pay for going to school myself, graduate with my degree, work for a very successful tech company, launch many albums. And now I'm on the radio as I host a national radio show for CBC. My books have been thankful. Luckily, they have been very critically acclaimed and I'm very thankful for that.

[00:20:48] But I have all the trappings of a very successful person. You would think I came from this very stable, really loving and supportive and everything was laid out for me. But actually the key to me actually being able to do that, I think, is resilience. And I think a big part of that resilience is I see resilience as a kind of a flexibility, a fluidity. Because if you're very hard and firm, it's very brittle.

[00:21:18] And so if it gets struck in a way that's at the wrong angle, it'll crumble. Whereas something that has some give and can adjust and can say, hey, I'm going to change this jacket and you'll see me as this and I'm going to fully be this. But now I'm going to change this jacket and some other people are going to see me as that and I'm going to fully be that.

[00:21:39] And being able to be fluid actually allows you to thrive in more situations, which I think in my case really helped me to overcome what, quite frankly, even in my own family, my brother's path. When he, same parents, same grandmother, same migration when she passed away. But he's had a lot more difficult of a path than I have. And he's great now. He's figured it out.

[00:22:09] But a lot of the things I was able to do, he wasn't. And I think part of that is the age we were when we came over. But also that led to a certain amount of flexibility in how we could show up. And I think that really was the key to me being a little more resilient than he was. And if we define resilience as the ability to cope with difficulty for a period of time and survive or even thrive.

[00:22:38] And learning is part of that, isn't it? And I think it's interesting because learning to thrive, learning to adapt, learning to make choices is part for me about that idea. I'm very taken with your thoughts about identity because I do a lot of work in identity, both with gender, but also just generally. And it is quite fascinating that generally people tend to accept that identity is a social construct. And so why wouldn't your identity slightly change?

[00:23:06] This idea that we're somehow a fixed person. I think you're absolutely right. It does make you very inflexible, more brittle. And that's very risky, isn't it? You do find people who experience some of these life's difficulties who are very brittle. And they are the people who take longer to repair. They're the people who take longer to figure themselves out, aren't they? Because it happens to us all. Some people just call it emotional maturity, don't they? Get there in the end. Yeah. We recognise that. Not everyone does, right?

[00:23:36] It is the journey, isn't it? I'm a bit older than you and I'm still learning as well as we go along. But it is fascinating, that idea. And I love that. So do you reflect these ideas in your music and your writing? Because I'm very impressed that as an ex-creative person, not as creative you anymore, it's such an interesting and different voice to have, isn't it? To be able to articulate yourself using those twin mediums. So is that a feature of your work or do you tend to use different themes? Very much.

[00:24:04] I think this core, the core theme really, what we've been talking about is the core theme of my work. As a musician, I felt, and as the lead singer, often I also play bass and guitar, as you can see behind me there. But as a musician, I thought it was perfectly normal that when I was playing in a blues band, I dressed differently and had a different nickname than when I was playing in a punk rock band. Yeah. Than when I was playing in a soul and R&B band.

[00:24:34] I just thought, I thought it was just natural that I had a difference. So I created what people call personas, but to me, I was just changing clothes and behaving differently, which is what I recognized everyone was doing. But I gave it a name. So first I was Mike D in my blues band, and then I was Mike Danger in my punk band.

[00:25:02] D-A-I-N-J-A-H. And then I had this moment where I went to Memphis and I sat in a very intimate setting, saw Al Green preach at his church, which basically was 20 minutes of preaching and a three-hour concert. And so I came back thinking, oh, I'm going to be a soul singer. And so I dubbed myself Molasses. And my clothes changed every time I did that.

[00:25:31] And so I really, and the whole time I was doing that, I was, of course, donning the blue blazer of a corporate tech salesperson and going into boardrooms and negotiating deals and et cetera. In my novels, Saga Boy is my memoir. And that's really the story of me actually coming from Trinidad, moving to Northern Ontario, going into Blackberry and living this double life.

[00:26:00] So that's the actual story of it. In my fictional novel, Black Cherokee, it's about a young girl who is both Black and Cherokee. And so she's that in-between you described earlier, where you're neither this nor that. This is who she is. She's in the middle. And so it explores how does she grow up while being in the middle and trying to claim both and actually becoming that third thing that I referenced earlier.

[00:26:27] So this is, in fact, the very, they say all writers write about the same themes their whole career in very different ways. And I would say that's very true of this particular theme. I think identity, belonging, becoming, transformation, what is home. These ideas are things that I spend a lot of time thinking and working in.

[00:26:53] I'm guessing if you live in Toronto, it's a massively diverse place now, isn't it? It's quite renowned as having many different cultures and populations. It's sort of, there's a real melting pot, isn't it? So do you find yourself fitting in there? Or do you find you don't fit in anywhere? I find that I find more people. I, what I, and first of all, you're absolutely right. Toronto is, we play this game where my friend has this globe.

[00:27:22] And if we're hanging out and we're like, oh, we want to eat some food, we'll spin the globe and, and just put our finger down. And almost always, wherever our finger lands, we can find authentic food from that country in Toronto. Usually any time of night, depending on what it is. Some things are harder than others, but, so it is very multicultural.

[00:27:47] What I find though, is my fitting in Toronto is more about finding those, those bridge people. What I find, I found that at one point I was hanging out in a group and a couple of my friends were Mexican. A couple were Romanian. A couple were from the Caribbean. A couple were from Germany. A couple were from East Africa.

[00:28:15] And what we found out, because I was looking at the group going, wow, this is a very diverse group of people to all be kicking it together, doing the same thing. All having conversations, mingling as if they were, as if they'd grown up together. Is that all of them had come to Canada between the ages of nine and 14. Wow.

[00:28:35] And so I think that my, the fitting in that I, being in a city like Toronto means you're in a city where a lot of people were born somewhere else or whose parents were born somewhere else. And so because of that, it really, the fitting in isn't by nationality, the fitting in or by gender, the fitting in is by, do you have this similar experience of having to adjust?

[00:29:03] Are you neither here nor there? Yes. That's. So what's interesting, because just to take this one step further, I was looking at the synopsis of Black Cherokee and it seems that it's written from a female perspective. Absolutely. So you were writing as, how did you find writing in this or the female role or the female perspective? How did that, how did you get your head into that space?

[00:29:26] Yeah, it's, and I have never thought of this in the context of what we're talking about in terms of the, that fluidity that I have. But I think writing is about putting yourself there. There's a school of thought. I have many opinions about many of the things we think about art and literature that don't make sense to me. One of them is that you should only write what you know. It's kind of an MFA writing school trope that they will try to teach you.

[00:29:56] But I write to learn what I don't know. Oh, that's interesting. And so it's very, it would be very boring if every character in my book were my age, my background, or maybe there are other characters, but everyone that had speaking lines was me. I would find that very boring and probably a reader would as well. So it's a bit absurd.

[00:30:18] And so for me, I just, I look at writing as, as not as something that I dictate, but as something that comes to me as a kind of mystery. And then writing the book is what I do to solve the mystery.

[00:30:38] And so in the case of Black Cherokee, it came to me as this young girl and her grandmother at this bend in the river on a reservation in South Carolina, where I'd been traveling a lot in my Blackberry days. And I thought, okay, who are they and what's going on here? And the deep, the deeper you go, the deeper it gets. And then at some point there's a novel, but, but I think. It sounds like you do that thing where you fall in love with your characters first. Is that? Yes.

[00:31:08] It's a visitation. And I'm glad you use that phrase falling in love because I often think that when an author writes, we've, I've been interviewed many times about my books and people say, where did this idea come from? And there's this assumption that the author intentionally decides to do something and then straight line without any bumps in the road. That's what ends up on the page.

[00:31:34] I actually think it's closer to falling in love where, when you ask someone, why did you fall in love with this person? They will always give some reasons and they'll sound very rational. But the truth is, it's a moment, it's a throb, it's an overwhelming sort of emotional instant. And you go, wow, I love this person. And so that's how I think of writing.

[00:32:00] I think of writing as it comes to me and I figure out why after. And my job is not to dictate to it what I want as a writer, because very often your ambitions as a writer conflict with the thing that the book really wants to be. And that's when books become very hellish. Sorry to interrupt. I'll just say it's about it. So do you find the same if you're composing music?

[00:32:26] Because I don't know if you write your own songs, but often this is what a lot of songwriters say. It comes to them and they write it down. Yeah. And the best, and I'm sure you've heard a lot of songwriters talk about their process. And we always know that one where they interview the famous songwriter about the famous song. And they say, you know what? I wrote it in about seven minutes. Yeah. It came to me. It felt like it was fully formed.

[00:32:52] They say things like, I had to check to make sure it wasn't a song I'd heard on the radio because it came so fully structured. And yeah, that's very much what it is. I see an artist as a doorway and the book or the song comes through you, but not because of you. You are actually just a facilitator and an enabler of the process. And I think what it engenders is Thich Nhat Hanh, the famous Buddhist monk.

[00:33:21] He said, when I think I know, I dig in my heels. I defend my position and it's hard to change from what I think I believe. When I think I don't know, I listen better. I ask better questions. I'm more willing to change if I admit I'm wrong, if the evidence suggests that. And so I would suggest that this sort of dictatorial author narrative, which a lot of people buy into, is not the way.

[00:33:50] I think the right way is a kind of a listening and a kind of humility and a kind of a respect for the idea, the mystery that's visited you. And I think love is similar to that too. So let's get all practical. Okay. Because I just need to, I'm just looking at time. I just don't want to be disrespectful of your time. So I've just been on Amazon and I found Black Cherokee, but only in hardcover. So are there plans to do audiobooks and Kindle versions?

[00:34:20] What are you thinking on that? There is an audiobook of Black Cherokee. You can get it on Audible. It's not read by me, thankfully, but by an actual Black Cherokee actress from, and it's very beautiful, the music. I'm quite proud of it. So there is an audiobook. There is a paperback coming for Black Cherokee in August as well. So we haven't released it yet, but it's coming. Yeah. Put it on Kindle. I want to buy it. So I'm just going to press buy, but there you go. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:34:49] I'll be looking forward to that coming out. So people want to find out more about you. Where do they look? How do they engage with you? Yeah, I'm on all the social medias, but I prefer to engage with folks on Instagram. So it's simply at Antonio Michael Downing, all one word, no other punctuation. And I respond to all messages. It just might take me a while, but I do give back to you.

[00:35:15] And yeah, as far as the books are available, wherever you choose to buy your books, if they don't have it, they can definitely order it for you. Brilliant. It's been an absolute joy to talk to you today. It's been absolutely fascinating as well. So thanks so much for spending time with us. It's my pleasure. Thank you. You take care. Hi, I hope you found that episode useful and entertaining.

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