Bronwyn Schweigerdt - Addressing Anger

[00:00:00] Welcome to Resilience Unravelled. Hi everybody and welcome to Resilience Unravelled, a podcast that

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[00:01:06] Unravelled. So let's get started. Enjoy the show. Hi and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled.

[00:01:16] That's 403 times when I've said that and I still can't say it right. There you go. Must be some sort

[00:01:21] of Freudian slip going on there. So as I just half mentioned, my guest tonight is Bronwyn Schweigerdt.

[00:01:29] I'm waiting for a round of applause or, you know, some terrible sort of booing sound, but nothing

[00:01:35] seems to have come my way. So I'm going to sit with that and I'm delighted to see you.

[00:01:40] Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:42] Pleasure. So I can tell by the accent that you may be somewhere across a pond or across a body of water

[00:01:49] somewhere. So where in the world are you tonight?

[00:01:52] I am in California.

[00:01:54] Oh, oh, you're having some terrible fires over there, I understand.

[00:01:59] I hear that, but I'm not, you know, acutely aware of that right now. Yeah.

[00:02:04] That's a good thing, I think.

[00:02:05] Yeah.

[00:02:05] All being said. So California, hey? Fantastic. So it seems to be a popular place for podcasts,

[00:02:14] California. I meet lots of people from that neck of the woods. What does, tell me a bit about yourself.

[00:02:18] Oh, well, you know, what I want to share about me is, so I'm a marriage and family therapist.

[00:02:25] I just say licensed therapist, psychotherapist, because I don't really actually see any couples

[00:02:31] or families. I just see individuals. So, but I, you know, came to this place. It was a second

[00:02:39] career for me. I wasn't looking for it at all. But I, myself desperately needed a therapist because I

[00:02:48] fell into a very, very severe depressive episode. And I thought I was losing my mind. And everyone I

[00:02:56] knew is like, Bronwyn, you need to go to a therapist. And I sought out multiple therapists.

[00:03:01] And every time when I was sitting in the chair back then, I thought to myself, you know, Bronwyn,

[00:03:08] you're hardly functioning right now, but I still think you might make a better therapist than this

[00:03:13] person. And none of them helped me. It was pretty pathetic. And so part of my journey in that

[00:03:21] particular depressive episode was going back to school and becoming a therapist and then getting

[00:03:27] all my 3000 hours and all that. And so that's what I do now. And my goal is to help people like me.

[00:03:36] There's just, unfortunately, so many people who aren't helpful or not very helpful as therapists.

[00:03:42] And then there's the rest of us who don't, you know, just friends who, you know, people in

[00:03:46] people's lives who really don't know how to support people, what that looks like technically.

[00:03:52] Um, and so my goal is to kind of get out these principles, everything I've learned and continue

[00:03:58] to learn about myself and then my own clients, um, to the greater audience. So I will say, you know,

[00:04:04] my podcast is called angry at the right thing. So I say anger is my area of, of expertise. I'm an anger

[00:04:12] expert and, you know, my, that original depressive episode. And then I had a subsequent one that was

[00:04:19] even longer after that. Both of those looking back in retrospect are so clearly my own, I call it,

[00:04:29] uh, suppressed anger, but I could also call it disassociated anger where I didn't even know I

[00:04:36] was angry, but I was, you know, they both were feelings of betrayal by people very close to me or

[00:04:44] people I had expectations of who didn't meet those expectations. I did not feel entitled,

[00:04:49] at that time to be angry. And I think that's a very common human phenomenon. And so we kind of

[00:04:56] disassociate from that anger, which lands us into depressed depression. That's what, you know,

[00:05:02] Freud said, depression is anger turned inward. And I also find as a therapist, most of my clients,

[00:05:09] uh, have a lot of anxiety and even panic. Um, and it's the same principle. In fact,

[00:05:15] it's the same principle, I believe for so many, not only mental, but physical illnesses, things like

[00:05:23] migraines, um, chronic digestive issues, autoimmune disorders, insomnia. I really see

[00:05:30] all of those as being a manifestation of suppressed or dissociated anger. And so that's kind of what got me

[00:05:38] to springboard for this podcast that I have now is I want to save other people from, like from going

[00:05:44] into what I went into or getting out of what I was in, you know?

[00:05:48] Yeah. All right. Tons to go out there. So let's, let's, let's go back to the very beginning of where

[00:05:52] you started. So you, it's always fascinating in America, particularly that, uh, the answer to

[00:05:59] whatever question is, is have a therapist. And I always think it's, it's like that there's an old

[00:06:04] phrase, isn't it? A man with a hammer sees every problem as a nail or something along those lines.

[00:06:08] I always, always think that the default is have a therapist, which, which means there's lots of

[00:06:12] therapists, which means by their very nature, some of them aren't that good. So, so you're sitting

[00:06:16] down in front of what you decided was someone whose job you could do better. So what were,

[00:06:20] what were they doing or not doing that, that allowed you to make that sort of judgment? Because

[00:06:24] I think that's quite helpful for people because often people sense that they can't

[00:06:29] challenge a therapist. So what, what was it you were experiencing?

[00:06:33] Right. So I will say the common denominator with all, pretty much all the therapists I've had over

[00:06:39] my life, which have been over 10, I would say, um, it's just not what they're not doing is not giving me

[00:06:48] a framework to understand what the hell is going on with me. So I knew at that juncture that I was

[00:06:58] desperately needing, you know, a mirror, that's what a good therapist does. They're a mirror and

[00:07:03] they give you a true reflection of yourself. We're all blind to ourselves and we need others in our

[00:07:10] lives to be a mirror. That is a trustworthy mirror, giving us a true reflection. And that's what none of

[00:07:17] them did. So, you know, some of them just went, aha, aha. How does that make you feel?

[00:07:23] Well, which isn't all bad, but it's not giving me an understanding or framework to understand myself.

[00:07:29] And then some of the others were what we call CBT therapists, which are DBT, you know, just barely

[00:07:35] listening. And then they're like, well, did you try going for a walk? Well, did you try it? Let's do

[00:07:40] some breathing. Let's really feel our body and do some mindfulness. Those aren't bad things,

[00:07:46] but they're certainly not even close to enough because really what sets us free is really deeply

[00:07:54] understanding ourself, getting to the root problem. So depression, anxiety, all the mental illnesses.

[00:08:01] And again, I believe also the physical illnesses. My background was in nutrition. So I'm very familiar

[00:08:06] with that component, the physiological, you know, they all, they're all symptoms. And so what most

[00:08:13] therapists unfortunately do is they manage symptoms and we're not getting to the root problem, which is

[00:08:19] usually very similar to other people's root problems. We have different outward symptoms maybe, but,

[00:08:25] but the root problem is some kind of disassociated anger, feelings of betrayal, feelings of maybe disgust,

[00:08:32] which are what we call hatred at someone and not heeding those feelings, not like knowing, oh,

[00:08:39] this anger or these feelings of betrayal are really valid. And they're there not to make me into a

[00:08:45] monster. They're there to give me vital information about how to proceed. You know, so maybe this person,

[00:08:53] I need boundaries with this person, or I need to, um, get out of the office of this supervisor. I need

[00:08:59] to find a different supervisor or a different place to work or whatever, but they're there to give us

[00:09:04] wisdom. Not, you know, a lot of us are relationship with feelings like anger or even hatred are like,

[00:09:12] oh, I don't feel angry. Oh, I, I, you know, cause we were raised to feel shame that those feelings are

[00:09:18] shameful. And so we disassociate from them, but they still, you know, I say feelings might be invisible,

[00:09:26] but man, they are real and they're more real than the chair I'm sitting on right now. They are

[00:09:31] so real and they don't just evaporate when we ignore them and pretend they don't exist. They,

[00:09:36] they haunt us and they, they like stagnant in our bodies and they will make us sick.

[00:09:42] Okay. So, so you talked to talk a lot about anger and, um, no, this is absolutely fine. And it's

[00:09:49] interesting that you see anger as a, as a sort of a root cause, your sort of Bonveld idea, isn't it?

[00:09:53] So, um, so can you define anger for us? Because obviously we need a starting place to begin to

[00:09:59] understand your sort of conceptual journey here. Yeah. So we can use a lot of different words. You

[00:10:05] know, I have clients say to me, well, I wasn't angry. I was just frustrated. So I'm like, okay,

[00:10:09] you're frustrated. So, you know, irritated, frustrated, but betrayal is a type of anger,

[00:10:14] even disappointment. I really, there's a lot of anger within that feeling of disappointment.

[00:10:19] Um, angry rage and raged, um, you know, all those, but basically most people, we feel it in our

[00:10:27] heart, in our chest. I think that's why panic attacks. I want to rename panic attacks as anger

[00:10:32] attacks because they're dissociated anger and our, it's like our heart is speaking to us and it's

[00:10:37] saying, pay attention. You know, when, when I have a client coming to me who just had a panic attack,

[00:10:42] I'll say, what made you angry right before that? Or what could have made you angry? Cause they

[00:10:46] weren't allowing themselves to admit they were angry. And they're like, Oh yeah, actually, you know?

[00:10:52] So I don't know exactly the definition, but it's, it's, it's a reaction. I see it as anger is

[00:11:00] a light on the dashboard of our car saying, Hey, warning, check under the hood. Something is really

[00:11:07] off and needs to be resolved or repair. So a lot of us. It's interesting. It's interesting that you bring

[00:11:14] that distinction to life because a lot of people sort of contend there are two core emotions,

[00:11:18] fear and anger. So it's interesting that you, you relate everything back to anger rather than

[00:11:24] a different place. So, so, so that's interesting. So I wonder, so what's, what started you with this

[00:11:30] worldview? What, what, where did the roots of that theory come from?

[00:11:34] I just started seeing it in my own experience, my own journey, and then client after client after

[00:11:40] client, like, you know, I, I was like, I'm not going to manage symptoms. I see that it is an anger,

[00:11:47] anger, anger tells us, okay, that person hurt me, or this situation is harmful. And it's so vital that

[00:11:56] we realize that so we can, that care for ourselves in a respectful and responsible way. And yet I see

[00:12:05] anger as the most understood feeling, uh, even by so many therapists, they'll try some therapists

[00:12:11] will try to defend, you know, the person you're talking about. And you're like, did you meet this

[00:12:16] person? You know, can you just listen and validate me? Because we're afraid of anger. Like we're afraid

[00:12:22] it's going to turn into, you know, violence or verbal violence and make us a monster. We've certainly

[00:12:29] seen people that we, we, we, you know, will term as angry people. I hate that term though. I'm like,

[00:12:36] that's like saying he's a breathing person. We all have anger. Of course we all have anger. It's

[00:12:41] there to give us information that, that as a warning. So, um, once we can heal our relationship

[00:12:49] with anger, I believe we start to heal our relationship with ourselves, with our inner child,

[00:12:54] if you will. And that's where I see people kind of either come back to life or maybe come to life

[00:13:00] for the first time. Yeah, it's interesting. Um, I was thinking of a few different questions as you

[00:13:08] were going through, but then I got absorbed in the sentence and forgot them all. Um, well,

[00:13:12] it is interesting in that the way you characterize that. Um, so you talked earlier about that

[00:13:18] depression was anger turned inwards. Oh, I know what I was going to say. That this is the point.

[00:13:22] I think the point you're saying, and the point which is probably true is that actually anger in itself

[00:13:26] is not a bad thing. We need anger because it's a part of our physiology to have anger, part of our,

[00:13:31] you know, actually some of our core wiring is that to be able to have the,

[00:13:35] the energy to be able to, to deal with something. That's what anger gives us. It's, it's where it

[00:13:40] goes out of kilter and that's, and that could be a social thing. It can be a, um, a learned behavior,

[00:13:45] sorry, learned, um, set of transactions between us and such like, and are you saying that it's the

[00:13:50] repressed, dissociated use of anger that actually is the issue here? Because actually free,

[00:13:56] free, um, I was going to say free anger, you know what I mean? Those sort of natural anger

[00:14:01] is, is incredibly healthy. It's, it gives us all sorts of advantages and benefits, but,

[00:14:06] so how does anger become repressed or dissociated? Just explain that process so people understand.

[00:14:11] Yes, I believe that it takes place usually for most people in early childhood. Um, you know,

[00:14:19] I imagine probably around age two, what we call the terrible twos when the child, um, and, and hopefully

[00:14:27] this is starting to change. I really have hope it will, but that's the first stage where our child

[00:14:32] differentiates from the parent and a lot of parents, you know, they just can't handle it.

[00:14:37] Um, or they just view it. They've been trained to view that as bad as wicked or, you know, um,

[00:14:44] not desirable, but it's necessary for that child to really become their own person and realize their

[00:14:51] own individuality. Um, and so I think a lot of parents kind of will shame the child when they're

[00:14:58] showing that anger during that, you know, phase, um, or they might like give them the silent treatment,

[00:15:05] which is a type of abandonment with, with a young child. That is the most frightening thing that you

[00:15:12] can do is, and they learn very quickly that, that anger equals either shame or abandonment or both.

[00:15:22] And they will, or yes, or violence. Right. So they will learn that and keep that for life. That creates

[00:15:30] a template in their little brain that will last lifelong, unfortunately. And so what I do with my

[00:15:38] clients is I bring them back to that template and we do like what I call an integration exercise

[00:15:44] where they, I have them integrate with their young selves or inner child to help them learn that,

[00:15:51] you know what? My adult self will never abandon you. Maybe mom abandoned us or threatened to,

[00:15:57] you know, with the look on her face, the tone of her voice, whatever, but I won't. And now we're safe.

[00:16:02] Now we're safe to feel our anger and not to betray ourselves anymore. Because when

[00:16:08] we dissociate from our anger, we end up betraying ourselves. And that makes us very, very sick.

[00:16:15] So, so, so I'm going to follow, follow through your theory. So, so when you have someone in,

[00:16:23] I'm doing the parenthesis signs now, having terrible twos or yelling and screaming and doing,

[00:16:28] you know, often it's a massive frustration for kids, isn't it? When they have no language to express

[00:16:32] what they need. So that it exhibits this way. It's often a sign of intelligence actually,

[00:16:36] isn't it? And so how should parents deal with that? So yeah. Yeah. And that's where the nuance comes

[00:16:44] in. Right. So, you know, we can say, Hey, Johnny, I don't blame you for being angry that mom won't let

[00:16:52] you have the cookie right now, but it doesn't mean you're going to have the cookie right now. Let's,

[00:16:58] let's know that we're going to have it later and let's do this other thing right now. What sounds

[00:17:03] good for you. So we can still validate the anger, the frustration, um, the disappointment. And, and,

[00:17:11] and that's the nuance that a lot of us just, even my husband still today hasn't learned to validate

[00:17:17] my anger. He's still, you know, and he'll tell me this, he'll admit it that whenever I'm angry and I

[00:17:22] want him to validate, he is afraid that validating my anger is actually going to make me more angry.

[00:17:28] And I think he represents a lot of people, um, that somehow it, it is counterintuitive. It really

[00:17:37] is. But what shareable is bearable with emotion. So when I feel validated from my husband, when I'm

[00:17:45] angry at someone else, I, my anger actually dissipates. I actually feel more understood.

[00:17:51] I'm calmer and my anger starts to dissipate. And I go into my prefrontal cortex and I actually

[00:17:59] start to think logically. However, what most of us do with one another, and especially with children

[00:18:05] is we try to logic them out of their feelings. And I'm like, that's, they can do that for themselves.

[00:18:12] Our job as other humans is to be that mirror, giving them that reflection of themselves and say,

[00:18:19] I don't blame you. I, I totally see why you're upset right now.

[00:18:24] And a lot of people contend that kids at two don't understand this logical parental approach.

[00:18:30] And actually, and if you look at our sort of, um, prehistoric neurobiology, actually,

[00:18:36] we, we didn't never had that as sort of, you know, um, a hundred thousand years ago. And I know

[00:18:41] we've got the advance of language and everything, but it may well be that there's something about the

[00:18:45] age of three, isn't it? Where things tend to reset. And it may well be that short shop action,

[00:18:51] perhaps is okay at the age of two, because I wonder whether we overanalyze and over adultize

[00:18:56] the childhood experience at two. Just, just a thought.

[00:19:02] Yeah, I don't know, but I will be honest. When my daughter was little and she said no to me,

[00:19:07] or she didn't, you know, push me away. It wasn't easy. Just, I'm going to be honest.

[00:19:11] I felt rejected by her. I did, but it's incumbent on me as the parent to be the grownup and say,

[00:19:19] you know what? This feels, I don't like the way this feels, but I'm the adult. She's the little,

[00:19:26] very little child. And it's my job to stay the adult and let her be the child. And I can learn,

[00:19:31] I can read books. I can learn about differentiation. I can learn about child development and that can

[00:19:36] reinforce and help me know this isn't personal and I can be okay with it. And I can learn to validate

[00:19:42] her feelings.

[00:19:43] But there's also a really strategic use of anger by children, isn't it? Because actually kids learn

[00:19:49] very quickly. You put a line in the sand, they stamp their feet, they jump up and down,

[00:19:53] they shout and scream. And then mum and dad or whoever the parent is gives him. And of course,

[00:19:58] they know then that the strategic use, I think the strategic use of anger is inbuilt very early.

[00:20:02] I think it's, I think it's very, you know, it's the case, one of the two, isn't it? So it's,

[00:20:08] it's one of the cause. But I, and I think, and I think sometimes it goes out of kilter there. So,

[00:20:14] you know, the old trans and TA sort of little professor is often an angry response, isn't it?

[00:20:19] It's just show off. It's the angry, it's the using people, the manipulating things that people use.

[00:20:25] And of course that can turn out into adult behaviour has been very difficult because of course

[00:20:28] adults get used to getting their way. And there's something about the resilience thing,

[00:20:32] which is about no failure. You're not getting that. You're going to have to learn to learn and come

[00:20:37] back from that. You're going to not get your own way. And I don't know whether we have as, as parents,

[00:20:44] I think we've, especially as in terms of a generation, a generational sort of average,

[00:20:49] kids seem to be a heck of a lot less resilient than they've ever been before.

[00:20:52] And I wonder if because actually we're poor at parenting because we're not trained to do it,

[00:20:56] but also we've allowed kids to bully parents in a funny sort of way. And I'm using that term in the,

[00:21:02] in the sort of nonjudgmental sense of it, you know, so get control and manipulate parents.

[00:21:08] So, so for me, anger, I think is one of the, it's one of the greatest gifts you have.

[00:21:12] And of course, what happens is because we become frightened. So there's the fear, anger response,

[00:21:16] then it all goes out of kilter, say in the workplace. So I always think that you have to

[00:21:21] work with both sides of that coin. So I'm always quite interested in your, you know,

[00:21:25] quite driven sort of thing down the, I'm not disagreeing with anything you said.

[00:21:28] I just wonder whether the other side of it is the case as well.

[00:21:33] Yeah. Well, no, it is, it is so multi-layered. It really is complex. And, and that's what,

[00:21:41] you know, we humans need to learn to do is really to see the nuance and to see all the dimensions

[00:21:46] of this. And it's not easy. It's not, but for a parent to say, Hey, Johnny, I hear you're angry.

[00:21:53] I don't blame you to validate that that teaches Johnny his anger matters. And that teaches him.

[00:22:01] He matters when we, when a child or a human, any human of any age, but especially a child to their

[00:22:07] parent learns, their feelings matter. They learn they matter. And that is really powerful. We can tell

[00:22:14] our kids that they matter, but if we're not showing it, it's meaningless. It's futile.

[00:22:20] However, we can say, I can say, let's say Johnny persists. And I say, you're not going to get the

[00:22:25] cookie, but we're going to get it later, you know? And then let's say he's, he stays angry. He's still

[00:22:29] tantruming. Then I can say, I can use my words and I can model for him. I can say, Johnny,

[00:22:35] you're screaming is making mommy really angry. And it's really hard for mommy. You know, it's,

[00:22:42] mommy wants to start screaming too. You know, I can, I can model for him what I do with my anger.

[00:22:49] I don't hide it. I don't shelter him from it. Um, I tell him, you know, mommy's getting really angry

[00:22:54] and, you know, mommy doesn't want to get angry because that's going to cause for a timeout or

[00:23:00] some, you know, punishment for you, Johnny. So, so what can we do right now to figure this out?

[00:23:05] You know, so we can really just learn as we go and that's a messy process and it is going to look

[00:23:12] different with different children and different adults, but it's part of us being human is learning

[00:23:17] that wisdom, learning, um, that nuance and the multifaceted approach. And, and there's not a

[00:23:25] uniform one size fits all, you know, with, with other people, but we can validate their anger and we can

[00:23:32] validate our own in the process and say, mommy's losing patience right now.

[00:23:36] So is, is the problem with a lot of this though, that actually, because what we're doing is you're

[00:23:40] forcing kids, sorry, forcing is the wrong word. You're adapting kids to have external validation

[00:23:45] of anger. And actually what we want is internal validation of anger because part of the self-loathing

[00:23:51] comes from our own capacity, not to be able to handle our own anger. And I wonder whether,

[00:23:56] and I wonder whether the externalization of the solution is part of the issue here.

[00:24:01] Because of course, you know, 50, 50, 70, a hundred thousand years when these emotions were sort of

[00:24:07] constructed, there was a cost to anger. And so we learned that and that, and we learned that very,

[00:24:11] very quickly because you were thrown out of the tribe and then you died. So, you know, we, we've got

[00:24:16] all the people that didn't, if you believe in America, some weird beliefs about stuff. But, um,

[00:24:24] but I think what I'm saying here is that, um, the thing which is missed is the validation of our own

[00:24:29] anger because actually anger is a very powerful thing. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a survival

[00:24:35] instinct, isn't it? So why would we diminish it? Right. And that is really imperative. So when I

[00:24:41] say, Hey, Johnny, I don't blame you for feeling angry. I'm letting him know his feelings matter.

[00:24:46] He matters. But then when I say, I'm losing patience, I'm getting frustrated. I'm letting him know

[00:24:51] my feelings also matter. And that is inherently what needs to, what all kids and all humans need

[00:24:58] to see is I respect you and your feelings matter and they're valid. And so are mine. So let's do

[00:25:05] this in a way where everyone's feelings are taken into consideration and we meet in the middle and

[00:25:11] compromise. And wouldn't that be a beautiful, is compromise harder and takes longer and more messy?

[00:25:17] Yeah. Most of the time, but is that something that all of us need to learn to do? Yes, it is.

[00:25:23] And of course there's exceptions to that too, but yeah. Yeah. But, and culturally it's very different,

[00:25:28] isn't it? But, but I think what you're arguing here, and forgive me for putting birds near out,

[00:25:31] but I think you're saying anger is great, but actually the expression of the behavioral side of,

[00:25:36] and I know you've had CBT and you understand it all, but for me, it's not the anger. It's the

[00:25:40] expression of it. It's the, it's the yelling and the screaming. That's not anger. That's expression of anger.

[00:25:44] And I think sometimes it's very hard for parents to understand as one, that actually the different

[00:25:50] things. Yeah. You can be angry and not express it. And you know, that's what you're talking about

[00:25:54] depression turning in on yourself. So it's healthy to express anger, isn't it? Really?

[00:25:59] Well, if we're expressing the anger as it comes up and we've developed a healthy relationship with our

[00:26:06] anger, um, as I do it. So, you know, I gave an example on one of my podcasts that my husband and I

[00:26:12] were going out of town. We both said, let's clean the house before we leave. Um, and then,

[00:26:17] you know, I start cleaning. I look over at him. He's still on his computer reading the newspaper.

[00:26:22] I eventually, you know, five minutes later, part of me wanted to yell, but I said, Steve,

[00:26:29] we talked about this and you know, you're still on your computer and I'm starting to feel resentful.

[00:26:35] So what I did is I just told him in real time, exactly what I'm feeling. If I had waited and said,

[00:26:42] no, no, no, I'm not resentful. I'm fine. And he's still on the computer. And now five more minutes go

[00:26:48] by. I might really start getting angry. If I wait another five minutes, I might get angrier. So if

[00:26:54] we're true to ourselves in the moment in real time, and we say, I'm starting to feel resentful,

[00:27:00] then we're not going to end up screaming, you know, 15, 20 minutes later. And, and, you know,

[00:27:09] again, my clients who have the panic attack or the serious anxiety, they're not expressing themselves

[00:27:15] and their resentment with their partner or, you know, whoever's in their life in real time, they're,

[00:27:20] they're pushing it down and either they're having a panic attack or they do lose their cool altogether

[00:27:27] and they start screaming. And so that, that again is a symptom of us not being responsible

[00:27:33] for our anger in the moment.

[00:27:35] I also love that way of framing it in the sense of using your method was, you know, I'm starting to

[00:27:41] feel the effects of resentment because actually that's a very powerful way of phrasing it. I remember

[00:27:47] a very respected friend of mine who's a therapist saying that the worst person to ever be married to

[00:27:53] as a therapist, because every, every day is a lesson for the non-therapist.

[00:28:01] And as a therapist myself, you know, I can say that the number of times my wife said, stop

[00:28:06] therapy me. I've had enough of that today. I just want to yell, leave me alone.

[00:28:10] Well, look, it's absolutely fascinating. Um, how can people find out more about the work you do?

[00:28:15] How to get in touch with you? Um, obviously not phone numbers and things that we'll link to you in the show

[00:28:19] notes, but, um, I'm, I'm just conscious that you and I, I mean, certainly I could chat all night.

[00:28:24] I think we shouldn't, um, I need to be respectful of your time. So how can people get in touch with you?

[00:28:28] What, how can they find out about your work?

[00:28:31] Yeah. So my podcast is angry at the right things, uh, found wherever you subscribe to your podcast.

[00:28:38] And, um, then I do have a Facebook page, um, angry at the right things, and then just a normal

[00:28:45] Bronwyn Schwager Facebook page as well. Um, but as far as the podcast, you know, it's, it's, um,

[00:28:53] I have a co-host her, she's actually my best friend, Katie, she's not a therapist. And so we

[00:28:58] kind of just break these things down and I lead her on some of these exercises. Like I insinuated,

[00:29:05] I do integration exercises. I do that on the podcast so that the listeners can do it for themselves.

[00:29:11] Um, cause I really, I think it's not just our head knowledge, these principles, but we really

[00:29:17] need to do like experiential to really see long-term change and, and heal our relationship with

[00:29:23] ourselves, which really is healing our relationship with anger.

[00:29:27] Practical knowledge. Goodness. And skills. No, absolutely. Totally agree with you. Um, um,

[00:29:33] I like the way you casually just chucked out the, um, your surname. So everybody I'm sure will

[00:29:38] be completely okay spelling that, but again, we'll link, I will, we'll not bother spelling

[00:29:43] that. We'll just, um, we'll just, um, um, link to you in the show notes because it's, it's a,

[00:29:48] it's a tour de force. That's, uh, it's been a joy. It's been really fascinating. Thoroughly

[00:29:52] enjoyed myself. Thank you so much for spelling time with us today. I really appreciate it.

[00:29:56] Thank you, Russell. You take care.

[00:30:00] Hi, thanks for listening. Hopefully that was a useful and interesting episode.

[00:30:14] We've also got a Patreon page and you of course can send us questions, ideas, thoughts, conversations,

[00:30:37] and fresh questions. And fresh questions.

[00:30:43] Hopefully there's something there for you. Catch you next time around.