Chris Hill on Rewiring Addiction Through the Separation Model

[00:00:03] Hi, I'm Dr. Russell Thackeray and welcome to Resilience Unravelled, a podcast with new ideas, new thoughts and new thinking about resilience. Guests with remarkable stories, products and services that can really power up your own mindset and resilience. You can also go to our site for more information, to ask questions or to access some of our resources at resilienceunravelled.com. Let's get started.

[00:00:32] Hey and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled and in front of me, a subject close to my own heart, somewhere I've been fascinated in for many years. Having worked in this field myself, I'm delighted to talk to Ephraim Ebstein. Good morning Ephraim, how are you? Yeah, I'm good Russell, thank you for having me on. And I don't really need to ask from the voice, but where in the world are you for our eclectic audience, where are you? Yeah, so I'm just on the borders of South East London, a town called Sidcup, the borders of South East London.

[00:01:00] So for those of you who are overseas, that's neat, just call it London, it's just easier, isn't it? London, I'm in London. London. Tell us a bit about yourself, Chris. I classify myself as a lived experience practitioner. So I help people out of mental health and addiction issues. We treat people through the psychology and how the mind has been wired to certain habits, behaviours, addictions, trauma. And we just educate.

[00:01:28] We educate people to the systems and mechanics and how they can go in and change them. And ultimately, yeah, that's what we do. So, and do you have experience in that field in terms of having addictions? Yeah, so the title lived experience practitioner is I myself had probably 20 years of addictions. Of course, addictions come hand in hand with some mental health issues, the side effects of what you're doing, the consequences.

[00:01:55] I was lucky enough, or I'd put myself on a journey of discovery to find the route out of this. I always knew that something was fundamentally wrong, but I just couldn't stop. And so I seeked help, professionals, doctors, therapists, counselling, went to groups, read books. But it was, I'm not saying any of that wasn't good. But where it actually got me to was this part of thinking outside the box.

[00:02:22] Rather than thinking conventionally, I started to think slightly differently. There was a couple of incidents in my life which, I don't know, put on a light bulb for me. And it was a self-realisation of what we now call the separation model. How I was acting and behaving, the decisions I was making were coming from a driving force from inside of me.

[00:02:48] So all of the years that I thought I had a drink and drug problem, I now know it was a mental health problem. It was coming from my thoughts, feelings and emotions like hunger and the need for thirst or sleep and stuff. So it was an internal system driving me to do what I was doing rather than, for years I was in self-blame. It was, I'm a bad person, I'm making bad decisions and I'm facing those consequences.

[00:03:14] Not really understanding these systems and mechanisms that were at play. Okay. So let's start from the beginning because let's start by defining what you mean by an addiction. And there are different categories of addictions, aren't there? So I just wonder if you could speak to that for a couple of seconds. Yeah. I mean, the way that we live our lives is through addiction.

[00:03:36] Whenever you get a dopamine experience in your brain from someone smiling at you winning five pounds on a lottery or you enjoy a Netflix program. Once you enjoy something that the mind releases dopamine, but dopamine is like a prehistoric mechanism to repeat behavior. So we're driven emotionally to keep doing what we're meant to be doing. And ultimately it was a survival mechanism when we were, when we were cavemen, women living almost animal life.

[00:04:05] So, you know, the mechanism is a survival mechanism, but it's still working in what we call modern day society. So society introduces us to lots of things, a sugary drink, a cocktail coffee, something that we get some sort of pleasure from, but unknown to us. It triggers this emotional response inside of us, which almost takes over that response and almost drives us to keep doing what we're doing.

[00:04:30] But to try and answer your question, the definition of an addiction is really whether something is causing yourself or others harm. So, and then we define it as an addiction, which is something that needs to be addressed or looked at. But as I said, addiction as a whole, we've all got addictions to something.

[00:04:49] Some are good, some are bad, but in the world of recreational drugs, gambling, sex, pornography, like it can become quite harmful to people. So, so rather than classifying everyone as an addict, we try not to use that terminology. But again, we might have to use those words or terminology for people to understand what we're trying to teach. But ultimately the whole thing is just the wiring.

[00:05:16] We're not born into this world addicted, although some modalities believe that we're born an addict and a dying addict and stuff. We just work on the simplicity of we're born free into this world until society presents us with stuff. Some things we like, some things we don't. Some things that we do, we might push the boundaries that then gets us into a lot of trouble. A lot of people that we deal with tend to be on the spectrum somewhere like ADHD, autistic, dyslexic, we find.

[00:05:45] But that's not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing because it's an entrepreneurial kind of mindset. So when someone's been knee deep in addiction for so long, what we're able to do is look, what you've learned here, if you use it in a productive way and start your own business and that, then you've already got the skillset. Because you understand money, people, you're able to take risks and stuff like that. So we can show people that there's another side to this life without these debilitating behaviors.

[00:06:15] Yes. I wonder, because actually when we think about it is a lot of people talk about the difference between stimulants, so alcohol, drugs, for example, and social addiction, which is while you're shopping and your porn and things like that. Do you differentiate those things or do you see that there's a central theme and the behavior exhibits itself in the point where you just express it? What's your thoughts on that? Yeah. You've got physical addictions.

[00:06:43] So you've got nicotine, alcohol, pharmaceutical drugs. They all lack inside the body as the drug leaves the body. It leaves a void, which creates this additional hunger. The hunger needs to be fed. But when you've got addictions, gambling, sex, pornography, I don't know, some sort of other. Shopping. Shopping. Work. Social media work. And it's all the same thing. So there's no physical drug going in because you're getting pleasure from it.

[00:07:10] The mind shows the same algorithm. If you like, the mind will create hunger similar to a drug leaving the body as an indication to act out on it, acting out on emotion, feeling at all. But ultimately it comes from the need to fulfill. So it's fulfillment, but fulfillment comes from a hunger. So the mind will create hunger, the same as nicotine or alcohol, cocaine for gambling or sex or pornography or social media or whatever it might be. Gaming.

[00:07:39] Look at the kids in the gaming. So the mechanism is always the same. And this is what we found. It doesn't matter someone's intelligence, someone's upbringing, someone's trauma. It really doesn't matter. The fundamentals of what habitual behavior is a prehistoric mechanism. So if we're not dealing with people's intelligence, it's this prehistoric mechanism, this release of dopamine, which is the mechanism to repeat behavior. It was like, I don't know, a caveman running gym for food.

[00:08:07] It would find a book with berries and it's nutritional and, you know, survival. Before language and communication that the brain would say that the survival and it would indicate to that caveman woman to keep going back to that bush because that is survival. But that mechanism working in a modern day society is being hacked. So the mind's getting dopamine for your scratch cards or your cup of coffee or something. So the mind believes that this is survival, but it's not.

[00:08:36] So we don't need scratch files or a cup of coffee to survive in this world. But the mind has been hacked because it released dopamine. The system doesn't understand really consequences. So it only understands indication of survival. And that's what it's doing. Yeah. Makes sense. Last question on this or causes an hedonite. Do you think from your perspective that some people can be predisposed to addiction? So, yeah.

[00:09:03] So what you're saying is are some people more vulnerable than others? So the answer to that is yes. The people that find themselves in a lot of problems with addiction are the people, if we're talking about the adult population, the people that are, I don't know, self-employed, business owners, people that have ready cash or they're not working a nine to five. They've got spare time. They can just go off. And so you find that it's these people that tend to have the difficultness.

[00:09:33] People that are in employment nine to five, they have a pay packet once a month, tend to pay my mortgage, pay my bills. This is how much I've got left. So the money that they've got left is potentially not enough to get them into serious trouble. So this is your occasional drinkers once a week, once a month, maybe someone drinks a bottle of wine in an evening, but they're still able to get up and stuff like that.

[00:09:56] So those people, but as I said to you earlier, the nine out of 10 people that come to us are potentially on the spectrum. ADHD, dyslexia, Asperger's, I don't know. There's a whole number of conditions as you like, but they're not needed within this program. They get left at the door. But what we do is once we get people through the program, then we do suggest get a check, get an ADHD check, get a dyslexia check.

[00:10:24] Try to understand the condition of the mind because it will help you manage that condition and move forward rather than just trying to put your head in the sand and don't think that there's anything going on. There are reasons why we got into trouble, but rather than it's yes, that potentially is a mental condition, but it's not.

[00:10:46] We just don't work on this premises, even if the parents or the grandparents, this philosophy of it's inherent in us that my dad was an addict. My granddad was an addict. Now I'm going to be an addict. My kids are going to, it just, we definitely need to move away from that. There is something about environment, isn't there?

[00:11:05] Because if you're growing up at the back streets of XYZ British town or any town really, and you're exposed to people who are dealing, who are encouraging you as a peer group, especially with boys. There is a, because I met lots of people who started at an early age and then they can kick it, but they can kick it quite easily because it was not, it was never their thing. They were, not seduced into it, but encouraged into it. Like smoking, for example. Yeah. Listen, environments have a massive factor.

[00:11:32] I mean, when I was growing up in the late seventies, we were introduced to smoking, smoking first cigarette at seven years old. I think I was drinking alcohol by the age of 10, just smoking cannabis by the age of 11. So it just depends what is being presented to you at the time, but it's still a part personality. Are you a risk taker? Are you someone that is willing to cross a certain line and stuff like that? But there's so many different factors on how we get involved in these things.

[00:12:00] What I would say to you at the moment, unfortunately we have an epidemic of nicotine addiction at the moment for the last 10, 15 years, maybe even longer. Our youngsters were introduced to vaping. It's not smoking, it's not poison and all these lovely strawberry and melon flavors and everything. So what we've done over the last decade or so is we addicted a whole nation of children.

[00:12:26] And so the problem that you've got is nicotine addiction is the gateway to cannabis, is the gateway to ketamine, is the gateway to balloons, is the gateway to spice. So, you know, this is the spices on the rise now because everybody's vaping with, it's not vape by the way. You're not sniffing, Mark, is it? So we've got coming under the radar now an epidemic with spice. So, and it's all being aimed at the kids because if you can get the kids early enough, you guarantee a lifetime of addiction.

[00:12:55] And so people feed from that, even government feed from people's addictions. But it's not people that buy the vapes, which they buy from. Even if you pay money to a drug dealer, that drug dealer is going to go and buy their Porsche or Rolex and is still putting money into the economy.

[00:13:13] So, the problem that we've got is there's just not enough education on the side effects of cannabis, which is the psychosis, side effects of alcoholism, which is depression. We just don't talk. The best we've got out there is when the fun stops, you stop. That's the best we've got coming from government. It's just ridiculous. And that assumes you can just stop. Yeah, and that is the problem. People think these are really nice tasting, but I can stop whenever I want.

[00:13:42] The truth is that they can't. Even nicotine. Nicotine is actually harder than coming off crack cocaine. It really is because you sit on a crack pipe all day, every day. But people sit with a vape, sucking on a vape all day, every day. So, this is the more addictive drug. Even things like refined sugar. As much as I could stop having sugar tomorrow, you try it and you go straight into some sort of withdrawal. You'd have no energy. You'd have lethargy, headache. Same with a cup of coffee. Very similar.

[00:14:11] This is the method about Ozempic, isn't it? That the side effects are really just sugar withdrawal. Well, it's all of these things. So, again, what is the solution? The solution is that we need to educate. Educate to the side effect. Educate to the systems and mechanics. What it's wiring to. Educate people that are in some sort of active addiction. How you can go back in and rewire the brain. What we've proven is that you can... If the brain has been wired in a certain way, then you can rewire. You can make it dormant. Send that part to sleep.

[00:14:41] So, there is a solution to the problem. But everybody out there is using what we call the willpower method. They're willing themselves not to do it. They're doing one day, 10 days, 20 days. Everybody's doing stop January, stop October. At the end of January, I'm not an addict. I haven't got addiction. And then they're straight back into the smoking, drinking. So, it definitely is an affliction on society, on the human race.

[00:15:04] But as I said, the taxation and the money coming in because of it is so large. So big. We're talking billions and billions that go into the economy every year. The caffeine industry, the sugar industry, the alcohol industry, tobacco industry, the gambling industry. It goes on and on. The pornography industry, I think there was a report on the news. I remember what it is. But this latest one, anyone can go on, share videos.

[00:15:32] And the government said it's such a good thing because we've made 100 million this year from that site alone. Yeah. They're not about to shut it down. So, it's almost like we, it's not like we're glamorizing it, but we're making it socially acceptable to do these things. And I suppose the other problem that we've got now is that we have legalized now most of these drugs, illegal drugs for the medical use. So, if someone's suffering from some sort of mental health issue, you can get cannabis

[00:16:01] from my chemist. You can get LSD. You can get MDMA. You can even get ketamine. So, you just got... Microdosis though, to be fair. Listen, I'm not against... If someone's mentally ill, someone's got cancer or multiple cirrhosis and one of these drugs is going to give it to them. Are you heroin in hospitals? It's not for pain relief. It's like... So, it's not... We're certainly not an anti-drugs or pharmaceutical.

[00:16:28] It's just the messaging that's going out to society to say that it's okay. It's not okay for our youngsters, our 10, 12, 14, 16 year olds to start vaping, to start using cannabis, to start using... I've got... We've got children and children. We've got early 20 year olds on our books that are wearing adult napping because the ketamine has shrunk their powers. They're wearing bowel transplants. Some have passed away. It's just... It's just shocking.

[00:16:57] But, again, there isn't enough education on... It's not the education on don't do drugs. It's the education on if you take this drug, this is what the outcome is. This is what the consequence is. And it doesn't take decades to experience. It happens straight away because you're so young and you're still in the budget. It's almost like we don't see it. Slowly, these conditions happen. The consequences happen.

[00:17:26] And then when you think that you're going to be able to stop, you just can't. So there's always been effectively... And I'm summarizing for effect, really, but there's always been two approaches. There's always been the 12-step approach, which is you've got no power. You've got no agency. You have to surrender yourself and you go through these steps. And there's the other approach, which is you've got full agency. You're totally in control and such. And then you work through that process. So you obviously have a method. Does it do something different or is it balanced on one of those things? No.

[00:17:56] So, yeah. So everything that we teach is to do with the separation model. So how we consciously... This is me and you consciously speaking and having this conversation. But whilst I'm speaking to you, my mind and my physical body are operating independently. They're making sure I'm able to sit. I'm able to hold a pen. I'm not going to embarrass myself. I'm not going to fall off this chair. It's reminding my next meeting. It's sorting out my digestion. It's making sure I'm breathing.

[00:18:21] All of these systems and mechanics that go on with inside of us that we don't really recognize. We just take it as a given. But these are very powerful mechanisms, making sure that we stay alive. But of course, because we've introduced all these other things, they become the drivers. We teach a separation model, which is really self-awareness. Self-awareness of my thoughts, feelings and emotions, understanding that they're my drivers and having the ability to question them. I mean, this is the problem.

[00:18:48] Like if someone doesn't understand systems and mechanisms that are going on inside of them, no matter what the mind and body introduced to them or for an emotional state, they act out on it without the understanding that they could make a different choice. And this is the problem. So what we teach is really common sense, but common sense is still, it's not a given. Common sense still has to be educated to people. It's a bit like crossing a road. You won't leave a four or five year old playing out in the main road of a football because they

[00:19:17] haven't got the common sense yet, not to understand the danger. They can see the cars, but they don't understand the danger. And so that child has to be taught the green cross code before you're confident enough for them to be able to cross the road. I mean, you're going back a few years there, the green cross code. Wow. Oh yeah. I mean, I don't have kids these days. You've got to talk anyway. We were taught if you run under traffic in your head, you'll not do it again. We were tougher on the north. Sorry, go on.

[00:19:45] What I'm trying to say is the solution is very simple, even though it's very complex, but common sense in the world of mental health and addiction still has to be taught to someone. And so without the education, that person is still bound by these internal mechanisms, thoughts, feelings, and emotions, which become their driver. So if they feel a certain way, they're going to act out rather than if they feel a certain way, but then they could question. But you can only question once you understand the mechanism.

[00:20:13] So self-empowerment is certainly not giving my power over to a higher power in the hope that the higher power will guide me to free. We just don't have the time for that. Again, we're not anti-religion, faith, any kind of faith. I think, I believe we should all have faith in something. Otherwise, what's the point? But again, we're living in 2026. We have enough evidence now of mind, subconscious mind, physical body, emotion, feeling.

[00:20:42] So let's use science and education with evidence-based timelines to prove that you can change. And that's what we, that's ultimately what we do. So it sounds like it's like a combination of self-awareness so you can understand your thoughts, feelings, and emotions. And then you can make more rational and more conscious choices. So you can flick your behaviors into something that gives you a reward that's not part of the addiction mechanism. So you're getting something from something else.

[00:21:09] That's what you're saying about the flicking into entrepreneurial. Is that a good summary or a bit poor? Yeah, no. So, yeah. So no, that would be like a distraction method. So like, he follows that kind of method. So what we're doing is teaching a separation model where we evidence the independence of you, the conscious self, and how your mind and body work. Because once you, once we evidence the separation model, it allows you to question.

[00:21:38] So you can't flip between something. It's just the recognition that your mind is working independently to you to give you the opportunity to observe the mind. So when the mind kicks in, you've got the ability to choose. But if you don't understand systems and mechanisms, mind, physical body independence, then you will always be in compliance with the systems. What we're giving people back is the ability to choose. It's to have awareness and make a different choice.

[00:22:06] It's just at the moment, people don't have that because they see themselves as a whole. They look in the mirror and say, yeah, this is definitely me. These are my thoughts. These are my feelings. These are my emotions. So that is the mistake that people make. And from that mistake, they become in what we call compliance with the system. So no matter what the system says, they will act out on, say, let's go into a gamble, you know, picking on some pornography, getting a lot reticular.

[00:22:34] It really doesn't, it just depends what they hardwired to. And then they just, they can't seem to switch it off because their only pleasure comes from when they hit that button. What the mind does is when they're not doing what they're meant to be doing, the mind creates a lower emotional state. So most people are living in lower emotional state, which is the cause of the mind as the pressure to pick up. Cause when they pick up a cup of coffee, they get the reward, but the reward is just the perceived high.

[00:23:01] Cause it's only taking them back into what we call natural state of being. See, natural state of being is where we were all born into. We wasn't all born and then all low waiting for a cup of coffee or waiting for some alcohol, we were born into an emotional fire. It's only until society introduces us to, we want you to smoke this, pop this, drink it. And then all of a sudden that child innocence is being extracted because as the drug or the behavior we're not doing.

[00:23:27] And then, so the mind creates the emotion of low as the patient to get the drug or the act and behaving that way to get the high, but the high was just taking us back to what we already had. So we call it entrapment. I don't know, perpetual cycle. There's lots of goals to describe what's going on, but what we need to do is make that part of the mind dormant. And once you make it dormant, then you go back into emotional, natural emotional state, which is an emotional heart. And then you stay like it.

[00:23:56] So there's a reward at the end of the program, which is what the drug gave you or the behavior gave you. But now you see that you can have it in a natural way, then you wouldn't need the drug anymore. Yes. That makes sense. So you've read the book called, is it called Beat My Addiction? I've just bought it. It's a book on Amazon. It's called Get Your Life Back, The Road to Freedom from Addiction. That's the one. Yeah. So you can search Ephraim Ebstein Addictions if you can't remember that massive title, which I've just done. And it's on special offer this month, Chris. That's good news, isn't it?

[00:24:28] It's on Bindu Marketing. Interesting. But so I'm assuming you have, I just looked at your site, obviously you handle any, someone coming to you with any sort of addiction. They fill in what looks like a pretty simple intake form and then they engage with the organizations. How do they begin that process? How do they find you? Yeah. So we do two things. We have a charity arm of our organization. We have like a commercial side. The commercial side is where we work with people one-to-one privately for as long as it takes.

[00:24:57] It's usually we might work with people for two or three months and we cover it at the two-year support plan in case anything was to go wrong. On the charity side, we have like free online workshops. We do school talks and we support people generically through that way. And yeah, and as I said, it's just an educational program. We're also teaching people now to become addiction coaches so that they can help in their communities or they want to start their own coaching practice. There's such a need.

[00:25:27] Yeah. In every single town, city across. There isn't a town or a city that isn't affected. Even if it's sugar food, weight gain, weight loss. Again, these are all addictive habits, behaviors. People are using them and gyro jabs, but all they're really doing is stopping the signal from the body to the brain. But when you stop using them and gyro jabs, the body sends the message to the brain. And why have you not been listening to us? We haven't eaten in the last six months.

[00:25:56] And then the problems start again. And so the overeating, the sugary foods. And so people find themselves back or you have to keep paying a hundred, 150 pound every month to continue that. So again, what's going on is more money again, going back into the system. So you're not going to get a lot of people complaining about it because people are making money from it. So it's almost like as an individual now, we're such a mess that you've got to take control of yourself. And so that's what we're trying to educate.

[00:26:27] Take control of your mind and physical body. You take control of your environments. It's just at the moment, the environments are getting into your mechanism subconscious mind and driving you to do what society wants you to do. So it's almost like we've got a disconnect from the mind and also disconnect from society and decide what's really good for us rather than what everybody else is thinking that is good for us because ultimately people are getting sick and ill. You know, the adults are not great. Yeah, you're right about that.

[00:26:55] You can find people becoming increasingly lonely and isolated, don't you? And actually then this is the trouble with willpower, isn't it? Because you're on your own. And actually the secret to all this is the support you get, isn't it? And that's always been the thing about 12 steps was the me things. It's a bit like Weight Watchers. It wasn't the guidance. It was the fact that people got together and supported each other and reached out for each other. Having that buddy is really important, isn't it? I think, listen, AA 12 steps is a fantastic model and lots of people have got out that way.

[00:27:25] The only downturn, I suppose, is, you know, the religious connotations at either higher power or God. I think just in 2026, we've lost our way with faith and in my world, Christianity and stuff like that. So we all need to get back to faith and family and companionship and connection. The problem that I suppose we've got is because people have so many addictions, it causes people

[00:27:52] to just think more about themselves than others. We were all in our natural state of being, natural state of being. We're bound to help others. We feel the need, we feel the pain of other human beings and that need to help others. But what's happening, those emotional attachments are being disconnected by these drugs or behaviors that cause us to be self-indulged more than everyone's trying to fulfill their hungers before they can go and help others.

[00:28:21] But we've got so many hungers that the people are trying to, it disrupts our natural state, which is to help other people. So yeah. Makes sense. So how do people find out more about the charity? How do they find out more about how to get in touch with them? What's the, what are the secret codes and words that you need to type into the computer? So the charity is robheelfoundation.org. So robheelfoundation.org was set up in memory of my twin brother.

[00:28:48] I lost my twin brother to an accidental overdose, drug overdose in 2014. Yeah. This is what's propelled me on to write this book, write this program, help other people. So that's robheelfoundation.org. We've got a free seven day plan that you can just download. It's the basic model of what we teach. You can also go onto Amazon, get your life back, the road to freedom from addiction. Just get your life back. Chris Hill, you'd find the book on Amazon.

[00:29:17] And if you're looking for private mentoring, then come to beatmyaddictions.com and you can just fill out a form and someone will be in touch with you and we can have a private conversation. And yeah, the solution is there. It doesn't matter. Rob Heel Foundation, Beat My Addictions. I don't know, go to Amazon. The message is still the same. It's an educational program. It's the rewind of the brain, self-talk technique, and you become your own counselor, therapist.

[00:29:45] Make sure that you fix the problems that you've got and then go on and help other people around you. That's the message. Yeah. Makes sense. Brilliant. You're doing great work, Chris. Thank you for spending time with us today. I really do appreciate it. It's been fantastic. As I say, book's on a special offer. No excuses. Rush out and get it. And beatmyaddictions.com and bloodthalerfoundation.o. Thanks for spending time with us today. Thank you. Take care. Hi, I hope you found that episode useful and entertaining.

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