Deevo Tindall - Transcending traditional ideas to create purpose

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[00:01:11] Hey and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled and today my guest is Devo Tindal. Devo,

[00:01:20] that's an unusual first name. Tell me about that. Well, I got it from my mother. Did you?

[00:01:25] She gave it to you or was it? It's actually a nickname but I've had it since I was a little

[00:01:31] child. My real name is Devin but for whatever reason since I've been a child I've just been

[00:01:36] called Devo and then just sort of stuck with me. There's no real reason behind it but I'll

[00:01:40] take it. I like it. I sort of prefer to, it's like a Brazilian soccer player, just Devo.

[00:01:46] Yeah in fact I'm assuming you don't use the Tindal bit do you because I mean that's

[00:01:49] sort of loses the mystique somewhat doesn't it? Absolutely I rarely use my last name

[00:01:54] and in fact anybody if you were to google it just sort of pops up as Devo all over the place.

[00:01:58] So fantastic. I think that's a really great idea and obviously I can tell by your accent

[00:02:03] you're not from these shows so I'm guessing you're from across Tupond. So where in the

[00:02:07] world are you? I live in Charlotte, North Carolina in the States originally from San Diego,

[00:02:12] California and I moved out here in 2006 been here ever since. Wow it seems odd to go from

[00:02:18] that side of the country to the other side. Most people tend to go the other way or maybe

[00:02:22] that's just my own limited experience. Well not right now there's a mass exodus from California

[00:02:27] for whatever reason but at the time I was married and my wife's family was all East Coast

[00:02:33] and I went to college on the East Coast and so she just wanted to get back to the eastern

[00:02:37] side of the states and so I left. I just figured that was the we're not married anymore

[00:02:41] but I thought that was the loyal husband thing to do. She didn't, she never liked

[00:02:46] California and she wanted to be closer to her family so we moved east and I didn't want to move

[00:02:50] to Florida which is where her family was at the time. So we settled somewhere in between

[00:02:54] which was North Carolina which turned out to be a fantastic success story for me.

[00:02:59] Well before this we were just having a chat about Florida so good decision.

[00:03:07] Yeah it's just never been my thing. I don't know it's too hot, it's too buggy,

[00:03:09] it's too flat. I guess because I grew up in California and the water is always chill

[00:03:15] and refreshing and then first time I went to Florida I thought I was taking a bath when I

[00:03:19] went into the water. I'm like what is this? This is horrible, I don't want anything to do with

[00:03:22] this and there's bugs everywhere and horrible drivers. I just never found Florida to be very

[00:03:29] appealing to me. Well what are we talking about today? So tell me a bit about what it is

[00:03:33] that you do. I own a couple of businesses. I'm a serial entrepreneur. My current biggest

[00:03:39] time investment is with Fusion Creative. We are a marketing and branding agency. We work

[00:03:43] with small businesses, entrepreneurs, solopreneurs and help them craft and tell their story and then

[00:03:50] share that story with a very targeted audience so they can have better brand exposure, obviously

[00:03:55] more revenue but just increase their brand awareness around who they are and tell their

[00:03:58] stories. So we teach our clients how to do that properly. You said you had a couple of

[00:04:03] websites. Have you got a side hustle as well? Well no yeah I've owned Fusion. I did

[00:04:10] corporate gig for almost 15 years straight out of college but feeling unfulfilled in that space,

[00:04:16] I've always been a photographer so I own Fusion Photography here in Charlotte as well

[00:04:20] and that sort of is what led me into the new business because I was creating all this content

[00:04:26] for small businesses and entrepreneurs but then they didn't know what to do with the content.

[00:04:30] Photo video just sort of was like sitting in their digital desk collecting dust and so

[00:04:34] I realized there was a gap to fill with that and so I started approaching all these

[00:04:38] clients and I was like what if I could take this content for you and then teach you how to do

[00:04:42] something with it? So it first started off with doing workshops and educational series and teaching

[00:04:47] them how to share their message on social media, how to tell their story but then it turned out

[00:04:51] they're like well why don't you just do it for me so I was like okay cool so then I figured

[00:04:54] out a way to kind of make that into a business and here we are three years later

[00:04:57] at Fusion Creative. So we take the content so it's a sort of a holistic approach.

[00:05:02] We take the content, we teach them how to use it so they're on board with it and then we

[00:05:06] take that content and manage it for them so social media, website design, paid advertising,

[00:05:11] all the different things that go into that digital space. Yeah it's always struck me as

[00:05:16] interesting obviously we talk about resiliency but before we get into that it's always struck

[00:05:19] me as interesting this idea of narrative because in terms of personal psychology

[00:05:24] narrative is so important but it's always that thing in the gap in perception between

[00:05:29] what a business is its narrative and its story and its brand and the actuality of it

[00:05:34] and I often wonder whether people create stories to actually aspire to it and change

[00:05:39] their business purpose to meet their own narrative or there's a gap between

[00:05:45] you know that sort of glitzy front end and the true horror of what might sit behind it

[00:05:50] sometimes. It's a really interesting observation and I love that space and I think from

[00:05:56] my perspective that inherently that is actually the crux of the problem is that businesses are

[00:06:02] trying to tell a story that is not authentic to what they truly are and because of that they're

[00:06:07] not actually clear on what their true value proposition is and so they try to be like

[00:06:12] everyone else or they see something on social media and so they try to espouse to that

[00:06:16] instead of really focusing and honing in on what their true strengths are, what their

[00:06:19] superpowers are and then telling that story because think about it if you really know

[00:06:24] what you're good at and you've really taken the time to clearly define you'll be able to

[00:06:28] better articulate that because you have the passion and the emotion behind it and other

[00:06:32] people will see that and because we're so smart as consumers we have so much information now at

[00:06:36] our disposal right with these phones. I can very quickly get to the bottom of redoing

[00:06:41] reviews, I can see what other people think about it and I can really clearly understand

[00:06:44] whether you actually are solving a problem for me and if you're not truly solving a problem

[00:06:48] whether it's conscious or subconscious I'm going to move on to the next thumb slide and so

[00:06:52] that inherently is the problem that I try to solve for my clients so thank you for that

[00:06:57] astute observation. No that's okay it's checks in the post I think as they say but it is

[00:07:03] interesting isn't it because actually there's sometimes a fantasy between the narrative and

[00:07:09] your authentic self as well I mean this applies to individual psychology as well as business

[00:07:13] psychology because often you work out your true superpowers and all these different things

[00:07:17] and actually don't really like what you're saying because actually isn't funky or

[00:07:21] sexy or aspirational or where you want to be it's actually sometimes your superpower roots you

[00:07:28] in your past and that's one of the risks of the superpower approach I always think because it is

[00:07:33] inherently old-fashioned because it was where you were. That's a really good observation so

[00:07:38] can you have some self-awareness around where you were and understand the context of what

[00:07:43] what's been created because of that then if you want to go psychologically do the shadow

[00:07:48] work to sort of work with that what does that actually mean like who are you in a sense like how

[00:07:54] often do we ask ourselves who we really are and what it is that we're here to accomplish like

[00:07:59] why did we come here and why did you create this business and so that's your business

[00:08:04] shadow work if you will to speak psychologically. So in a sense we do that shadow work with our

[00:08:09] clients so there's part science to it, there's part data to it, there's part true psychology

[00:08:15] intuitive psychology that really gets to the root of the problem what it is they truly want

[00:08:19] to accomplish because what I find a lot of times is what you just said we think we want to do this

[00:08:24] we think we're good at this but when we really sink down in beneath the covers we realize that

[00:08:29] they may not be very clear on what they're actually trying to their problem is they're

[00:08:32] solving and so then we help them create that so that they're so they can actually step into

[00:08:36] their true power. So you're right there is a difference between our perceived notion and what

[00:08:42] our actual abilities are. Yeah and it is interesting as well isn't it you look at the

[00:08:46] the fundamentals of sort of basic strategy and you talk about this area that you either have

[00:08:51] and you know very boldly you have big growth small growth steady state retrenchment or exit

[00:08:58] you know at the simplest thing and you often find that people make those sort of seismic

[00:09:03] shifts when there's been a problem so you know it's resilience that comes in business

[00:09:08] resilience you have to do a turn around you have to shake things out you have to

[00:09:12] you have to sort of reinvent who you are you have to pivot you have to switch

[00:09:16] because actually there's an emergency and as much it's much sometimes it's much more

[00:09:20] cathartic to do that than trying to be reinventing yourself when you're already

[00:09:23] good at something. It takes a lot it takes a lot of bravery to reinvent yourself when

[00:09:28] you're already successful because you've got so much more to lose and I always wonder actually

[00:09:32] sometimes resilience is the easy way around corporate reinvention in a way.

[00:09:40] Well even if you do have success I think that our I personally believe this is just my personal

[00:09:47] philosophy that our job is to become a better version of ourselves each and every day in

[00:09:52] every way possible and that doesn't mean that that you're trying to seek perfection that

[00:09:56] just means that there's always there's always a higher ceiling but if you're stuck in the

[00:10:01] paradigm of I'm really successful and I just sort of I've sort of reached this space I have all the

[00:10:06] things I need but you're not taking into account like the potential that you haven't yet

[00:10:11] considered then you're sort of limiting yourself so if you have reached a pinnacle and you do

[00:10:17] have a lot of success what else is there out there that you might not have explored yet

[00:10:21] because you just haven't taken the time to do that and so for me it's I guess my answer

[00:10:25] to that is you know I lived I lived and breathed in a corporate world straight out of

[00:10:30] college and I made a lot of money you know had a big house I had all the things all the metrics

[00:10:34] that would qualify as success but inherently in my soul I wasn't happy I was I felt unfulfilled

[00:10:41] I felt like and I didn't even know what it was you know I'd made a lot of mistakes and

[00:10:46] looking back which I don't believe in mistakes but I had a lot of experiences along the way

[00:10:50] that created that paradigm I was operating in and on on the cover it's like wow you know

[00:10:56] this guy has everything but if you were to sit and actually have a deep conversation with myself

[00:11:01] and realize like yeah I have a lot of things but what does that mean what I'm not doing

[00:11:04] anything that's making me happy I wake up in the morning and I dredge going to work I'm

[00:11:08] like dredging through the day so by having that conversation with yourself and doing your

[00:11:14] shadow work and being self-aware and taking the time to be introspective around it I realized

[00:11:18] that you know ultimately I didn't want to be in corporate world I making making thousands

[00:11:22] and hundreds of thousands of dollars wasn't necessarily my primary objective I actually

[00:11:26] wanted to be in a position where I could help other people and serve them in a capacity and so

[00:11:30] that's what I felt like was my true calling and so I stepped into that space and walked away

[00:11:34] from something else I'm hearing all the American buzzwords all floating out of that one last

[00:11:39] sentence so calling and serving others and such like words it is interesting this sort of

[00:11:44] move away even away from that idea and I was listening to the CEO of Timsons which is a big

[00:11:49] company so relatively big company in this area and what they've done is they've thrown all their

[00:11:53] performance metrics out and they've thrown all of the metrics out of the window at the moment

[00:11:57] and what they're saying is basically that there are three rules of business any money you take

[00:12:01] has to go on the tail effectively and there was a couple of tiny others but fundamentally

[00:12:07] all I want is people to be happy and what they've discovered is that their metrics have

[00:12:10] all ticked up because of the focus on happiness and it is interesting that this drive this

[00:12:16] your best self you're maximizing your potential can sometimes just make people quite miserable

[00:12:21] and actually a lot of people just want to come to work and jog along and that's not the

[00:12:27] American dream but it is but it's an interesting idea isn't it that we subvert the idea of what

[00:12:33] is happiness well I don't think happiness is something that I'm seeking now so I understand

[00:12:38] your perspective and I don't disagree with it but happiness is not is not my ultimate

[00:12:44] objective I think ease is sort of my ultimate objective and being able to be present and

[00:12:50] mindful in situations if you want to borrow some more buzzwords but just be present and

[00:12:55] mindful in all situations I have two daughters and you know one of the things I noticed is

[00:12:58] that I was missing most of their life I was working all the time and I was running around

[00:13:02] and I was gone on weekends and I was traveling and I was like man my daughter's

[00:13:06] seven years old and I have not yet seen one of her dance performances my other daughter

[00:13:10] is five years old and I have yet to be to one of her gymnastics events and I was like

[00:13:15] that's not the definition of happiness per se that's the definition of and it's different

[00:13:19] for everybody for me it was how can I find an existence that enables me to sort of be

[00:13:25] peaceful with what's going on and not like constantly looking over my shoulder or do I

[00:13:29] have to do this or I have to do that or do I have to create this or do I have to make

[00:13:32] more money and what I found is that my quote-unquote happiness was being able to

[00:13:36] spend time with the people that I love doing the things that I love doing most which is

[00:13:40] reading sitting on a beach like you are right now or exploring different things with you

[00:13:44] know whatever it is and so I found that my existence that I was living was not

[00:13:48] enabling me to do those things and so I just I truthfully my soul wasn't happy my health

[00:13:54] wasn't good I was suffering from in my relationship with my wife which led to divorce

[00:14:00] and and at first I thought okay this is everyone else's fault you know I'm good I'm

[00:14:04] great I'm doing this look at me I'm the youngest executive in a fortune 500 company like all these

[00:14:08] sorts of things and what it turned out was is that I wasn't good those were all a facade I was

[00:14:12] like playing make believe with something else and so my version of happy or my version of

[00:14:17] being present and mindful was like there's a different paradigm for me to step into and so

[00:14:21] those metrics changed for me it wasn't like make money it was how can I spend more time

[00:14:25] with my kids or how can I just sit and read a whole book cover to cover without having to

[00:14:30] like race over to work or race off doing a trip or do something like that so I guess that's what

[00:14:34] I'm trying to explain to you I think that's really profound actually because I love the

[00:14:37] peace analogy I think that's really lovely I'm a big believer in words and I think people

[00:14:42] I love words mine's freedom yours is peace some people happiness doesn't really matter as

[00:14:46] long as people have it but what I find is that certainly from and I think often the

[00:14:51] corporate world and entrepreneurial world is similar to the individual psychology where

[00:14:56] people's identity becomes rooted in work and so work becomes them and there's a lot of research

[00:15:04] that shows that when people of a certain generation get to a certain age they retire

[00:15:09] and they die pretty quickly because their sense of identity has been the work itself

[00:15:14] because and you know I've bumped into entrepreneurs on a regular basis who tell

[00:15:18] me how much they hate working in their own company and it's like obvious well why don't

[00:15:23] change because it is your company it could be anything at once well I can't because I'm

[00:15:26] now trapped into this treadmill of identity based on this is what an entrepreneur should be like

[00:15:34] and I know myself in terms of when I redefined myself and thought about freedom I really did

[00:15:39] recategorize actually how do I get freedom and it's about doing what you want doing what's fun

[00:15:45] doing what's lucrative or doing what you find intellectually challenging and I think

[00:15:51] you have to go through that piece of work and I think you're calling it shadow work and I like

[00:15:54] that idea but I don't think we actually sit down and maybe it's a wisdom thing maybe

[00:16:00] it's an age thing I'm a bit older than you so maybe I've done this more than once

[00:16:04] but this idea of freeing our identity from the means of producing it so you have to

[00:16:11] be something before you can generate the means of delivering that and I think people mix that

[00:16:17] confuse it don't they I think that's a brilliant observation well we're not taught that so if you

[00:16:22] if you sort of at least here in America I don't have any experience in England but I would

[00:16:28] imagine most of the western world is very similar in that space because I've traveled

[00:16:31] you know all over the planet and you see different things in different cultures right

[00:16:35] and so you know what matters to us is completely different than what matters to people

[00:16:38] in the middle east for example so one of the things that I've observed now that I have

[00:16:43] children that are in the schooling system is that we're militarily and I'm using that term

[00:16:48] metaphorically but somewhat literally we're metaphorically militarily

[00:16:52] ought to sort of sit in these rows and within these rows we're taught that the only way to

[00:16:59] to have success or to be excellent is to have better grades than everyone else

[00:17:03] belong to the sports team have the best band have the best team have the best grades have

[00:17:08] the highest GPA be the Rhodes Scholar get the college scholarship I saw that college

[00:17:12] tuition sorry that college admission in America is at an all-time high it's like 600 higher than

[00:17:19] it's ever been in any time in recorded history and and because my daughter's going through it

[00:17:24] right now and like the admission standards are and they're and they're creating this

[00:17:27] like scarcity model right yeah so that but also simultaneous to the scarcity model

[00:17:32] tuition has gone up like 200 it's like 60 000 to go to school in America now at a real

[00:17:38] college is insane and so it's like we get caught up in that trap of I have to be the best in my

[00:17:43] class so that I could get to this school because this school is the best school and then when I

[00:17:47] get to this best school I'm going to get the best job and when I get this best job I'm going

[00:17:50] to be the best person I could possibly be and so we're taught from day one we talked about

[00:17:54] epigenetics in the green room after before the call it's like we're literally cellularly

[00:17:59] trained to do follow one path and it's really just dogmatic because that's there's so many other

[00:18:04] things that exist on the planet where you could like find and make a living like and you might

[00:18:10] not make all that money but would you make something else in currency that makes you happy

[00:18:14] that makes you peaceful that makes you have freedom and so but we're not taught those

[00:18:18] things and so maybe it is wisdom maybe it is an accumulation of trial and error like maybe

[00:18:23] it's all of the above but for me it was for me it was everything you just said like I had to

[00:18:28] go through this school of failures I got divorced I had a bunch of other things going on that just

[00:18:33] didn't really amount to what I thought I wanted my life to be but then when I stopped and looked

[00:18:38] at it I was like what I thought I wanted my life to be was based upon another principle of

[00:18:43] someone else's idea of success it wasn't what I wanted to be it wasn't what I ultimately wanted

[00:18:48] and I didn't have the peace and so I don't think a lot of people go through that exercise

[00:18:53] that doesn't make me better or worse I'm just saying I don't think everybody goes through that

[00:18:58] state of let's call it renaissance where you're introspectively looking at your life and saying

[00:19:05] is this really what I want to do is this really what I expected my life to look like

[00:19:10] and we just sort of get caught on this treadmill and because they keep feeding us

[00:19:14] the nuggets of showing us what success looks like and rewarding us it's like Avalav's dog

[00:19:19] it's like the dangling carrot in front of you you just keep oh give me more give me more

[00:19:22] give me more and it just like becomes this self-deprecating machine that we can't get off of

[00:19:28] and by the time you do get off of it it's like you're 65 years old or 55 years old you're

[00:19:32] like holy shit like I didn't accomplish any of the stuff I thought I was going to do when I

[00:19:37] was a little boy or a little girl and it's like fuck man I only have 15 20 years left

[00:19:41] in my life now what and so like that's the problem the paradigm that is training us needs

[00:19:47] to be reconstructed. Yes I love what you're saying there and of course sometimes you end up

[00:19:52] agreeing with each other on these podcasts so let me pull this apart a little bit so I love what

[00:19:58] you've said there and we're talking about capitalism. Yeah 100% because that's what

[00:20:03] capitalism needs as sort of a blindly faithful audience to be fed itself into the social machine

[00:20:08] 100% but what's fascinating about this system two things about your system and ours one which

[00:20:14] is that the only way to prove you the best is to be able to measure things and so what

[00:20:18] happens is schools measure things they can measure instead of things that they should be measuring

[00:20:22] they don't measure completeness robustness thinking skills adaptability resilience emotional

[00:20:28] intelligence what they're measuring is can you hit the test so the schools teach to the test

[00:20:32] and everybody knows that which means you've got vast armies of people coming out into the

[00:20:36] world with no useful skills really because we're teaching the skills that were to the test

[00:20:42] which we could measure you know 25 years ago which were relevant then and then don't get me

[00:20:46] started on IQ which is one of the most ridiculous measures of all time if you look at the

[00:20:52] history of IQ it's the most bizarre thing you've ever come across and so what we've got with

[00:20:58] your this best of the best the best model is that the resilience which is built in is

[00:21:03] very fragile because actually the vast majority of people who are coming through that sort

[00:21:07] of education system are not the best because the best is the apex and everybody else is a

[00:21:13] failure and this is why we have so much anxiety in the world you see these amazingly increasing

[00:21:19] levels of anxiety and now we've got all this neurodiverse thinking styles and such like

[00:21:24] because in that you know that really rigid system that you're talking about neurodiversity

[00:21:29] shows up as being odd i'm doing parenthesis fingers now here because it's not odd it's

[00:21:34] just different and we've just just we've just discovered that difference is wrong and

[00:21:39] instead of realizing that difference is the future you know difference is creativity isn't it i mean

[00:21:44] doing what you do part of what you must be doing is going in looking at a situation looking at

[00:21:49] it with a different perspective a different set of eyes a different set of thinking processes

[00:21:54] going have you thought about 100 and that person sitting there going blind me i didn't

[00:21:59] how did you come up with that and you're thinking this isn't rock this isn't this

[00:22:02] literally isn't rocket science this is literally just perspective 100 and and for whatever reason

[00:22:08] i've always been blessed with that sort of left brain right brain pragmatic creativity mind mindset

[00:22:13] and even when i worked in the corporate world i would get it's one of the reasons i walked away

[00:22:16] from the corporate world because i would get in trouble for questioning things and operationally

[00:22:21] looking at something and i'm like i think there's i literally had a boss pull me into his office

[00:22:25] once and he's like i think your idea is genius like it's it would really improve the processes

[00:22:30] we'd ultimately make more money but we can't do that right now and i was like what do you

[00:22:34] he's like well first of all you're just new to the company and you're like 25 years old

[00:22:38] so you need to know your place he literally told me i need to know my place yeah i can't just

[00:22:42] speak up and i wasn't speaking up to show off i was like i was just sitting in the room

[00:22:46] and my my mode of thinking is okay that's good but we could do it this way have you

[00:22:52] considered that or have you considered this or have you thought about this or here's the

[00:22:56] ramifications of that and maybe if we tried this we might go that direction so my mind's

[00:23:01] always thinking like what's a different way to approach something to give an equal or better

[00:23:05] outcome with you know path of least resistance and so i had stepped out of my place and and

[00:23:09] what's crazy to me is that the more i stepped out of my place the more i was told that i can't

[00:23:15] do that and so that's sort of what led me down that pathway of like do i really want

[00:23:18] to be in this place where i'm constantly bumping up against this reversion to critical

[00:23:23] thinking this this like aversion to like having a better way of doing things just because you've

[00:23:27] always done it that way and so that's ultimately why i stepped away from it but to your point which

[00:23:32] by the way you have some brilliant points um if you you should really write a book on this piece

[00:23:35] by the way but now we have this and we look at this all day long and we have this comparison

[00:23:43] itis of everyone else's idea of what success is or you see someone else doing this and you're

[00:23:49] like why can't i do this and so we start like getting caught up in this like i don't even

[00:23:54] know what it is it's this like perpetual will of they're doing it why can't i but they're doing

[00:23:59] it better than me so maybe i'm not good enough so i have to sort of have those like the inherent

[00:24:03] feelings of failure within myself so like we're in an all-time high in depression in america

[00:24:07] i don't know about you are in the uk yeah suicide rates all-time high depression all-time

[00:24:11] high people moving jobs i saw that the average person jumps jobs before they turn 30 15 times

[00:24:20] in america and i'm not saying that's good or bad but for me what i would when i read that i see is

[00:24:25] like there's two ways to interpret that you either have people who are following this new

[00:24:29] model of like i can do whatever i want or they're following this model of impossible to

[00:24:34] please because i have perpetual gratification handed to me on a daily basis and the whole

[00:24:40] idea of toiling and figuring things out on your own and playing in the mud and being

[00:24:44] in the trenches and failing doesn't exist so much anymore because we can just quickly

[00:24:49] move on to the next thing so i don't know if that's right or wrong but just sort of an

[00:24:52] observation i've been thinking about i love i love that thought and as you're talking it's sort of

[00:24:57] it's making me wonder whether you know you look at yourself and and the changes you've done

[00:25:01] and the work you've made on yourself and your dog side and such like and but we need all those

[00:25:07] dull sort of automatons in large organizations because they're the ones that hire us because

[00:25:11] they they can't do it we can um but if they could do it they wouldn't need us

[00:25:16] so and it may well be that we've created a system where the mavericks the fly-by-nights

[00:25:22] the creatives the innovators they need to be let free because it is also the case isn't it

[00:25:28] and i'm sure you've seen this happen a ton of times in america where quite you know a

[00:25:33] significant creator factory or enterprise has been swallowed up by a large organization within

[00:25:39] six months all the creativity's gone and all the people have left because actually the two

[00:25:43] things it is hard to coalesce so maybe there's a natural falling out if you're going through

[00:25:48] work and you're asking questions and people are saying no maybe is the falling out to say maybe

[00:25:52] what is the career path for people that don't conform to the the step the this sort of

[00:25:58] ideological stereotype of keep your nose clean if you say the wrong thing it's a career limiting

[00:26:03] mistake but otherwise here's a massive budget and go and hire people who could do what you

[00:26:07] can't don't know well there's a lot to unpack there i was have you ever heard of the

[00:26:12] book of raw yes so i was i've been reading the book of raw lately and one of the things they

[00:26:18] talk about is sort of like there's this coalescence of people that evolve and there's a group of

[00:26:22] people that just aren't equipped to evolve and there's a group of people who just haven't

[00:26:26] figured out how to evolve yet and so there's only a limited number of people who can evolve

[00:26:31] into that space and then the rest just sort of rinse and repeat and start all over again

[00:26:34] so it's interesting to think of that in that way which is similar to what you just said

[00:26:37] like there's a pathway for the mavericks and there's a pathway for the for the automatons

[00:26:41] and and it is true like the nature of our society and the economy and capitalism and

[00:26:46] all the currency of money and stuff we have it couldn't exist if there wasn't the automatons

[00:26:52] and it couldn't exist if there wasn't the mavericks so then i stopped to think and i'm

[00:26:56] like okay is that the yin and yang of that specific model like you have to have one

[00:27:02] you can't have one without the other so maybe that is the universal law but then i also

[00:27:06] stop and think like well what if you could what if you could create an entire society

[00:27:13] of mavericks of free thinkers of critical thinkers so what are we leaving on the table

[00:27:18] what haven't we tapped into yet right so if we could train people to become the mavericks

[00:27:23] if we could teach people to tap into their creative and their critical thinking

[00:27:26] and all the things that make society a cohesive whole ultimately what are we leaving

[00:27:32] what could we potentially become like could we evolve into something simply magnificent that

[00:27:37] we haven't even yet considered yet and and are we intentionally being repressed so that society

[00:27:43] can't do that because in order for a society to exist the way that it is there has to be a

[00:27:47] dominion of control there always has to be the doers and the not-doers right so somebody

[00:27:51] is sitting at the top controlling all of this paradigm because it benefits them so it's like

[00:27:57] yeah i'm not trying to be a weirdo mega conspiracy theorist but you do have to start

[00:28:01] it does beg the question like is there a reason that not everybody has become creative critical

[00:28:06] thinkers is that universal law or is it by design i don't know maybe it's maybe that you have to

[00:28:12] have one you you have to have that coexistence of the yin and the yang i don't know it's just

[00:28:16] the thought i think about sometimes we're now into philosophy and i think that's great isn't

[00:28:20] it we've now gone from talking about marketing we're now into philosophy and about but let's

[00:28:24] just play with that a little bit longer because if you have if you have anyone any

[00:28:30] market let's say we have a market that's 100 of creatives there's no no people to get the

[00:28:36] job done because we're all a busy having ideas every market regresses towards the mean so

[00:28:41] actually you'd end up with the marker of innovators being poor innovators average

[00:28:45] innovators really good innovators and exceptional innovators so you'd end up with the same

[00:28:49] problem with the same model it's the same model you'd always have that and maybe that's

[00:28:53] just a socioeconomic model rather than now that that that that goes back to capitalism

[00:28:59] so but if you go back to um if you go back to um what's it called when you call about the

[00:29:04] progression of the human race um not archaeology but you know what i mean social archaeology

[00:29:12] human beings tend to have that pattern in their lives don't they tribes have this um

[00:29:18] you know all sorts of cultures have that sort of pattern they have tasks and have high and

[00:29:23] low rules and have they have all these different sectors and such like and of course what we

[00:29:28] end up doing is you you bump into people who are more creative than you and less creative than you

[00:29:32] all the time and it's that bit about going back to your sense of identity if what you do serves

[00:29:38] your sense of identity to give you some sort of peace that is a sort of fulfillment

[00:29:44] and whether it's religious or spiritual or just financial or whatever it might be just

[00:29:48] intellectually curiously satisfying that's the sort of state you're looking for isn't it it's

[00:29:53] where all of those go back to your idea of you know working out this narrative it's about

[00:29:56] how would you pull those knots together so you actually are secure in that sense of narrative and

[00:30:01] who you are that sits behind it i i fully believe and and agree to that i think that

[00:30:07] humans by design and universe by design there are more flaws and less flaws more

[00:30:13] perfections less perfections and you know i know i have a neighbor uh that has been a

[00:30:18] mailman for he is 62 years old now he's been delivering mail since he was 19 years old that's

[00:30:25] all he does but he has his weekends off he likes to go to the beach he likes to surf he's like a

[00:30:33] he's a perpetual kid in a sense like he's never actually grown up outside of it but he is

[00:30:38] perfectly happy that is his life that's all he cares about and if you try to have a

[00:30:43] conversation with him about anything else he's just sort of like you know i don't know

[00:30:46] not i don't have an interest in that so that might be just the way that it is there are

[00:30:51] some people who i'm not that way like i'm always looking for like how can i make this

[00:30:55] a little bit cleaner how can make this a little bit better how can make this process a little

[00:30:58] more improved that's just that's what drives me i like whittling with things and seeing

[00:31:03] improvements or seeing the reactions to stuff like i just love exploiting and exploring things

[00:31:08] and so that's me that doesn't make me better or worse than you it just makes me me and maybe

[00:31:12] that's the beauty of it all is that we have this diversity of of population and that's what

[00:31:18] makes it all tick and so for me at the center of that is still creativity whether it's a

[00:31:23] whether it's a one on an erector scale of one to ten of creativity it's still creativity and

[00:31:27] so like that should always be pursued in people that's just i think that's just the nature of

[00:31:31] the beast unless of course that your maxim is not to be creative is to be to be is to be

[00:31:37] is to be predictable reliable and just you know you chug it chug away i was i was thinking

[00:31:42] if you talk about the mailman i was thinking to myself um everybody needs to have the mail

[00:31:46] delivered and i suddenly thought ah but the trouble is creatives like us develop a way of

[00:31:50] not needing a mail to be delivered so so what you'll find is if you if you band your

[00:31:56] identity on the job and your job goes down the toilet you are you are i was going to say

[00:32:00] flushed away but there's too many mixed metaphors now um and and look we've jabbered on

[00:32:06] enough and we talk all sorts of things if you've not proved your creative you've done

[00:32:09] nothing else because that's brilliant everything you've been talking about today so the people

[00:32:13] want to engage with your narrative storytelling content work and such like how can they find out

[00:32:17] more about what you do devel well thank you i've enjoyed the conversation as well um but i had one

[00:32:22] final thought on that so so for me creativity i think it can be somewhat mundane because it

[00:32:28] it really boils down to the ability to transcend a traditional idea maybe a rule

[00:32:36] or maybe a pattern or a like of your own choosing which is a lot of subjectivity

[00:32:42] to that and to create some sort of meaningful purpose for you around that and so if if delivering

[00:32:48] mail for 61 years or 40 58 years is your idea of creating meaning or something meaningful for you

[00:32:55] that's still being creative in some way shape or form so that's all i meant by that but

[00:32:58] anyway sorry to digress yeah literally creating yeah yeah that's the origin of the word yeah

[00:33:05] people people people do not understand this idea that creativity is about having a world

[00:33:11] shattering idea that changes the world but what you're saying is actually creativity is literally

[00:33:15] creating something it's creating your version whatever that may be as diverse as it can be from

[00:33:22] from from the strain of people all over the planet it's just creating something that makes

[00:33:26] sense to you and provides a sense of meaning and purpose for you like that's really all i see

[00:33:31] at creativity at the end of the day is and it doesn't mean doesn't mean you need to

[00:33:34] compose the next motzart or you know the next piece of of of really an art it just means

[00:33:40] are you doing something that is contributing adding some value solving a problem and gives

[00:33:46] you meaning and purpose and and if so then go rock on brother go rock on so it's actually

[00:33:51] creating you creativity yeah i like that you've got a new world now we're gonna

[00:33:59] come on come on we're gonna write a book on this yeah you're gonna have to come up with

[00:34:03] your um how can people get in touch with you all right sorry you can find me online at

[00:34:07] Fusion Creative Branding that's Fusion with an s not a z as some Americans obviously think i don't

[00:34:12] understand that by the way but Fusion Creative Branding.com or you can find me on Instagram

[00:34:17] or LinkedIn at Fusion Photog Fusion short for photography Fusion Photog so very good

[00:34:23] it's been a delight today and um i've enjoyed this and apologies if i've taken far too much

[00:34:28] of your time but i've thoroughly enjoyed talking to you so uh um all the very best

[00:34:34] and just just one more time that's Fusion Creative Branding.com and we talked about

[00:34:39] LinkedIn social i'm sure we'll we'll link up on um LinkedIn as well so that'd be good

[00:34:45] thank you for the conversation it's refreshing to have conversations of this nature

[00:34:52] hi everybody i hope you found that episode useful and interesting feedback is always

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[00:35:37] then search for resilience unraveled i look forward to being in your ear next time around

[00:35:42] take care