Denise Schonwald – The interplay between mind and body

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[00:01:10] Hey and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled and today with me is Denise Schoenwald.

[00:01:19] So good afternoon Denise, how are you? Is that okay with the name? Will that do?

[00:01:24] Yes just perfectly. Try it again so I know how to say it properly. I know Denise.

[00:01:29] Seanwald. Seanwald. That's important later on for website contacts such like you'll always

[00:01:34] find it in the link in the notes anyway. So tell us a bit about yourself Denise,

[00:01:38] I'm excited to know more about you. And I'm excited to be here. Well my name is Denise

[00:01:44] Schoenwald and I'm a mental health counselor licensed in the state of Florida but also

[00:01:49] nationally licensed throughout the United States. And before I was a therapist,

[00:01:53] I was a critical care nurse so my first career was in nursing and I enjoyed that very much.

[00:01:58] The transition into psychology has been wonderful for me. So why psychology after nursing?

[00:02:07] It was very interesting. As much as I loved being in the ICU, medicine is a grind. A lot of

[00:02:14] hours, a lot of call, nights and then switching to days. And as I started to get older, I thought

[00:02:23] I really want to continue because I felt I really loved medicine. I really wanted to stay

[00:02:28] in the field but I didn't really want to do the long hours and the holidays and the weekends.

[00:02:34] And for me, psychology just seemed like a wonderful transition.

[00:02:39] And I have really what a fantastic field I'm in mental health. And what's your anger? What's

[00:02:44] your area of mental health that you're interested in? Well, I seem to do a little

[00:02:49] bit of everything but I get I see a lot of people suffering from anxiety and depression.

[00:02:56] I seek a fair number of couples counseling. And since I'm a nurse, obviously, I also work

[00:03:03] with people who are chronically or seriously ill, maybe going through chemotherapy or radiation.

[00:03:09] And fortunately, with my medical background, I'm able to help understanding both sides of

[00:03:15] what they're experiencing with medical problems as well as psychological struggles.

[00:03:22] And you talk a lot about mind body. So I guess that makes sense with your background

[00:03:29] of being a nurse and then into psychology. So how are you defining? There's lots of different

[00:03:33] definitions and they're all sort of similar, but how do you define mind body? I think the

[00:03:38] easiest way to explain it and I didn't even realize this until I started to specialize in

[00:03:44] mental health. Certain emotions that we struggle with, if we struggle with them for years,

[00:03:51] they will eventually manifest physically. And so what we don't realize, for example, guilt,

[00:03:58] guilt is something that a lot of people will harbor for years and years and years,

[00:04:02] and we'll quickly go to that emotion. When they're stressed, I feel guilty, I feel guilty.

[00:04:08] What we don't realize is how hard that is on the bowel on the bladder,

[00:04:14] on the kidneys. It's an emotion that's almost gets stored there and eventually wreaks habit.

[00:04:21] Yeah, it's interesting. How does that work? How does it happen? It's a better question.

[00:04:28] There are seven energy, sort of main energies in the body. The Chinese refer to them as Chi.

[00:04:36] Shakti is another word. Chakras is another word that some are familiar with. But these

[00:04:43] energies in our body sort of filter, if you will, or process certain emotions. For example,

[00:04:51] if you've ever gone through grief, grief is very hard on the heart. And you may say, oh,

[00:04:57] my heart is just aching. And it's actually because that energy around the heart is blocking.

[00:05:05] Certainly people that have been married for 50 years and lose a spouse

[00:05:09] and pass right afterwards or soon after, we may say, oh, she died of a broken heart.

[00:05:15] But what actually has happened is that grief was so heavy on the heart that was likely

[00:05:20] already weakened. And that has contributed to the death of the spouse.

[00:05:26] So I'm always curious when people use things like chakras and such, because I've always used the

[00:05:33] more medical term of it's all about the cortisol and the adrenal and endocrinology systems

[00:05:39] rather than chakras. So do you use that as a metaphor or is that a way to explain

[00:05:44] things to people? Or are you saying there's something more energetic about the heart which

[00:05:49] is independent to the systems in which it belongs?

[00:05:52] What I normally do in my office, or obviously if I'm on Zoom, is I show a diagram of how these,

[00:06:01] where these energies are in the body, where they sit. And then I explain to them how certain

[00:06:06] emotions will affect that particular body part. For another example is, if you're around someone

[00:06:14] that you're not quite sure you trust and your mind can't quite figure out why, I may say

[00:06:21] to you, I have a gut feeling this person is not telling us the truth. Or there's something about

[00:06:28] this that makes my gut feel a little uncomfortable. And what actually is happening, trust is an

[00:06:34] emotion that sort of processed in the stomach and that they call it the solar plexus.

[00:06:39] And for that reason, fear is also there. We're seeing a lot of people now having a lot of

[00:06:46] stomach issues and stemming from that, or certainly exacerbating that, is a lot of fear

[00:06:53] which sits in the stomach. But isn't that again just the cortisol response

[00:06:58] and the destruction of the microbiome and what's going on with general gut health? Because

[00:07:05] actually a lot of the problems of gut, certainly in your world, in my world, is

[00:07:10] ultra-high food processing and such like. And maybe our diets make us more susceptible to things

[00:07:15] like anxiety and fear. Yes, and I'm also finding that we're unfortunately excreting too much

[00:07:22] cortisol. We seem to have a thought or have a situation happen and all of a sudden we go,

[00:07:31] I call it going very dark with it. Oh now this means this is going to happen and what if that

[00:07:36] happens? And we have a lot of energy and we put that toward worry or guilt or shame or

[00:07:44] whatever word we want to put in there. And that causes the body, because the body is following the

[00:07:50] mind, the body starts to excrete a lot of cortisol thinking, because the mind is queuing it,

[00:07:55] that this is something that's truly happening. Yeah, yes, it's interesting. Yes, so basically

[00:08:02] that's quite interesting. Because I think the trouble with the body is that it has a very

[00:08:05] limited range of responses to quite a sophisticated range of thoughts, isn't it?

[00:08:10] The physiology has really never caught up with our cognitive capacity to imagine and to

[00:08:17] do all the things that we need to do. I've always actually, I've always been a gripper

[00:08:20] without very few emotions actually. And one of the biggest is anxiety, which is

[00:08:25] and I think guilt falls into anxiety, because that experience of anxiety comes from not knowing

[00:08:30] what's going to happen. That's a lot to do with guilt and shame and embarrassment. It's,

[00:08:34] oh my goodness, what will happen next? Yes. And so it is easy to see how we can

[00:08:39] how we can help our thoughts. But it is easy also to use the body to make our thoughts better,

[00:08:44] wouldn't you agree? Yes, a lot of it where I work with people on is perception. Because

[00:08:51] if we're thinking sort of spiritually, or, or if religious, when it's time to learn something

[00:08:59] or evolve through something, it normally the experience is usually a little uncomfortable.

[00:09:06] Because if it weren't uncomfortable, we would never really pay much attention to it.

[00:09:11] And so when something happens and I feel uncomfortable, I also recognize that there's

[00:09:17] there's a learning experience, or there's meaning for me. And that sort of lessons,

[00:09:24] the severity of this is so uncomfortable, I don't like it. I don't want this to happen.

[00:09:30] Can you give me an example? Can you give me an example of that how that might work?

[00:09:34] Well, one would be grief. Right. And one of the things that certainly we've,

[00:09:41] if we've lived long enough, we certainly have grieved. And it's so painful. And our

[00:09:48] first response is, why do I have to go through this? Why is this happening to me? And then

[00:09:54] I think to myself, well, why not me? I mean, why, why should it happen to everybody else,

[00:09:59] but I shouldn't go through it. And then I think about grief, really giving more meaning for me

[00:10:07] to life. Appreciating relationships. Certainly, when other people are grieving,

[00:10:14] I've learned because I've grieved to be more compassionate, to reach out and check on people.

[00:10:21] So for me, taking something very painful, and finding resilience and meaning has been

[00:10:27] very helpful in my life. Right. And so do you think grief is part of developing resilience?

[00:10:34] Yes. I think any type of suffering can help can help with resistance, we tend to want to

[00:10:41] control life so that we don't have to suffer. Yes, but suffering is useful.

[00:10:49] Right. And we think, okay, if I want this to be this way, and I want this to be that way,

[00:10:54] so that I don't have to suffer. And what I try to get clients to understand is,

[00:11:01] we should always work towards peace. And then whatever happens, we will find peace from within.

[00:11:08] Yeah, that's interesting. It's interesting you've expressed it that way. I just wonder

[00:11:13] if joy is good for resilience, because very few people seem to talk about that.

[00:11:18] Yes, joy and gratitude. Well, joy in particular, which is that unencumbered sense of freedom

[00:11:23] and, you know, kicking your heels up and having a lovely time. Some of it's dietary,

[00:11:27] some of it's physical, some of it's cognitive, isn't it? But I just wonder where we don't

[00:11:32] really talk enough about that. We talk a lot about pain and suffering and such like,

[00:11:35] don't we? We very rarely talk about having a really good life, and then resilience can

[00:11:39] come from that side of things as well. Maybe that's because we're both counsellors.

[00:11:43] Yes, yes. And joy is a very high vibrational energy. Joy helps these chakras or these

[00:11:50] energies within us open up and flow. If you've ever been into maybe a church service,

[00:11:57] and they're playing music and people put their hands up to God, and sometimes it might

[00:12:02] be a little strange to us, but they're actually feeling the energy. They're feeling God at that

[00:12:08] moment and they put their hands up because they want more of it. You know, they open to receive.

[00:12:13] You know, joy is something that hopefully is what we pass on to each other.

[00:12:20] So you're talking about energy, and so do you believe in the power of collective energy

[00:12:26] and how that works in terms of our individual contribution to that as a system?

[00:12:31] What did you mean? Did you say collective energy? Yeah.

[00:12:35] Explain that to me a little bit. Well, you're talking about individual energy,

[00:12:38] but then you're talking about sitting in a church and everyone having hands up. Are you

[00:12:41] thinking there's a form of collective energy there? Oh yes, yes. You haven't talked about

[00:12:45] collective consciousness, but I wonder if you think about collective energy. Yes, I'm following

[00:12:49] now. And collective energy, we certainly within ourselves, depending upon how the nervous system

[00:12:56] is, we either pull energy from other people or we push it out and make other people feel

[00:13:04] wonderful. When the nervous system has a low vibrational frequency or we're sitting in

[00:13:11] misery and shame and guilt, the only thing that we really think about at that time is

[00:13:16] ourselves. I may call you up and say, I'm stressed, I'm overwhelmed, I feel guilty,

[00:13:24] I'm anxious, and you feel bad for me and you're helping me, but I'm also a little bit exhausting

[00:13:31] because I'm pulling energy. When I was in critical care, patients were very, very sick.

[00:13:37] They were also pulling energy because they were sick. Yeah, I understand that. I mean,

[00:13:42] that's part of what we do to help. When our vibrational energy is high, we show compassion,

[00:13:52] we show forgiveness, we're willing, we're understanding and it's a beautiful energy

[00:13:58] that affects us collectively because people feel that. Yeah, so I'm guessing there's two

[00:14:03] systems here. One which is how do you collect energy? One which is how do you store and move

[00:14:08] energy? And you're talking about energy blockers within the body. And then the third thing

[00:14:11] is expressing it. So expressing it sort of looks after itself blockers you've talked about, but

[00:14:16] how do we rather just hoovering up energy from everybody else? How do we build our own energy?

[00:14:22] This is a very great question that you just asked me because I've noticed

[00:14:27] in the last couple weeks about just ways that I have been feeling depending upon situations.

[00:14:33] It's very important that we all develop our own recipe or remedy if you will for self-care.

[00:14:41] What do we do or what do we need to do to feel happy or at least neutral?

[00:14:49] Some people exercise is a wonderful way. Some people like to go for massage, some people

[00:14:55] like to go to the beach, depends upon what that is for the body to feel balanced.

[00:15:02] When the body is out of balance is when the energy gets low and without even realizing it,

[00:15:08] we go out into the environment to feel better. This is where addictions come in.

[00:15:15] It's interesting you talk about this sort of concept of energy balance. So you're talking

[00:15:20] about there's a balance between low energy and high energy. So the fulcrum is negative

[00:15:27] sort of balanced energy. So that makes sense. I never understand the balanced energy

[00:15:33] thing because I would have always just thought that more energy was good.

[00:15:37] Mm-hmm. It depends. For instance, when people would come into the hospital,

[00:15:43] we would take their blood pressure and we'd put them on the heart monitor and we get some

[00:15:46] blabs and so forth. And that gave us an understanding of how they were doing medically.

[00:15:53] How a little quick look if you will. When I'm seeing someone in psychology,

[00:15:59] I'm trying to understand how the nervous system is doing. Do they have a lot of low

[00:16:06] vibrational energy in the body, which is causing a lot of depression, anxiety, guilt? Maybe they've

[00:16:13] gone through a trauma or are they doing fairly well where they're enjoying their friends?

[00:16:21] Maybe they have a relationship to their volunteering and so forth. Certainly we want

[00:16:26] to as best we can do things that are good for the soul, knowing that at some point life is going

[00:16:33] to throw us a curve ball and we're going to struggle a little bit. Other people, their mind

[00:16:40] keeps them at a very low vibrational energy or really sort of is tough on the nervous system

[00:16:47] that eventually will affect them physically. Yes. Yeah, it's interesting. So when you're

[00:16:51] talking about lower energy, you're not talking about not having enough. You're talking about

[00:16:55] low energy operating at a lower frequency and a high energy, not being having a lot of energy.

[00:17:01] It's about having high frequency energy. Okay. So you can have a lot of low frequency energy

[00:17:08] therefore you'd be depressed. Well, and certainly if it's an intense low vibrational

[00:17:14] energy, it looks like anger, ego, jealousy. Okay, now the energy is still sort of on the

[00:17:22] low or negative side, but it's got a lot of intensity. Yeah. Likely that person is not

[00:17:28] going to be able to hold it in. Yeah, that's fascinating because actually if you put a bunch

[00:17:33] of human beings in the room and play them very, very, very low notes on an organ or a

[00:17:39] musical instrument, they will experience a degree of unease because of the low energy that comes

[00:17:45] from sound. So that's always quite interesting when you link those two different systems

[00:17:49] together. Fascinating. All right then. So let's get people to look at some of the work that you've

[00:17:55] been doing. Tell me how people can get a hold of you, what sort of things they can find when

[00:17:59] they get hold of your site. Let us know more. Well, my website is my name.com,

[00:18:06] Denise Schoenwald, D-E-N-I-S-E, S-C-H-O-N-W-A-L-D.com. And I would invite listeners to take a

[00:18:18] quick 10 question quiz on their mental health. It's easy. It just will give them a good

[00:18:26] understanding of how they're doing as far as mental health. For listeners today,

[00:18:32] I've written three books. My first one is Healing Your Body by Mastering Your Mind,

[00:18:37] talking a lot about what we've talked about today about the mind-body connection.

[00:18:42] My second book is on insightful self therapy. And then I just finished a children's book about

[00:18:48] a little girl who was struggling with anxiety. If listeners would like to go to my website and

[00:18:55] look at all three books, I'd be happy to send them one as a gift for listening to the show.

[00:19:00] They would email me their name and address. And thirdly, appointments are available on my website.

[00:19:07] I'd be happy to see someone for a consultation. I accept most insurances.

[00:19:11] And are you virtual or are you face-to-face? Well, certainly in Florida, a lot of people

[00:19:17] like to come face-to-face, but throughout the country, I see people on Zoom. Very good.

[00:19:23] It's fascinating, isn't it? Only three years ago, we never did that. We said it was

[00:19:26] terrible. We couldn't operate on Zoom. Now what would we do without Zoom?

[00:19:31] Yes, yes. We didn't want to and now we can't live without it.

[00:19:34] Yeah. All that saving, all that travel, all that stress of travel and all that sort

[00:19:39] of stuff we used to talk about. Denise, it's been an absolute joy to talk to you today.

[00:19:42] Thank you so much. Hopefully people will reach out and look for your books. And I'm guessing

[00:19:46] all those books are available on Amazon and all major book shops. So that's good.

[00:19:51] They are.

[00:19:52] And I see you're also on LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram. And that looks like YouTube as

[00:19:57] well on your site. So that's also good as well. Thank you.

[00:20:02] Brilliant. Thank you for spending time with us today.

[00:20:05] Welcome. You take care.

[00:20:10] Hi everybody. I hope you found that episode useful and interesting.

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