Dr. Joel Davis Brown on Queer Consciousness, Marginalisation, and Leadership Wisdom

[00:00:03] Hi, I'm Dr. Russell Thackeray and welcome to Resilience Unravelled, a podcast with new ideas, new thoughts, and new thinking about resilience. Guests with remarkable stories, products and services that can really power up your own mindset and resilience. You can also go to our site for more information, to ask questions, or to access some of our resources at resilienceunravelled.com. Let's get started.

[00:00:32] Hello and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled and welcome to my guest today. Dr. Joel Davis Brown is joining us from Across the Pond and he's one of the few American guests we've had for a while. So it's a delight to meet Joel. How are you, sir? How the devil are you this afternoon? I am doing well. Thank you for having me. Greetings to friends across the pond and wherever people might be throughout the world. What a fantastic voice you have. That is such, that is a voice to listen to, isn't it?

[00:01:02] When you were very young, did you have a voice like that very early or did that develop later in life? I'm 50 now, so when you say young, it could be 30, it could be 40. I've had it for quite a while and it's just my natural baritone. So I appreciate the... I hope you sing because it's such a good resonant. I certainly try. I try in the shower. Definitely. In the shower. Okay. In the shower. Yeah. Okay. Joel, tell us a bit about who you are.

[00:01:28] That's a wonderful question because I find who I am is changing. Who I am now and what gets a lot of my attention is I'm a husband. I am a son, a brother, an uncle, which means I'm doing a lot more mentoring than I have in the past. I would say primarily I'm a bit of a rebel. I'm a person who likes to challenge norms and a person who's a concerned global citizen.

[00:01:53] And so what that means in 2026 is someone who's thinking critically about the planet, community, how we build community, and what gets in the way of building community. But also the level of consciousness that I'm entertaining and that the level of consciousness that we collectively are entertaining. So those are the things that I'm focused on, particularly being where I am in the States where I feel like the consciousness in some ways is low and in some ways is unsatisfactory.

[00:02:23] But then because of that, we're seeing people being very inventive, thoughtful, curious, and disruptive with their thinking. So that's been a good thing. So that's an interesting phrase you've used there. So before we get into your career, what do you mean by consciousness? Consciousness to me is the perspective that you hold in the worldview about the world. It's your cosmology, how you make sense of life. But it's not just how you see others.

[00:02:53] It's also how you see yourself and how you view yourself within the web of society. It's understanding that there's many different levels of interaction and engagement, whether we're talking from the individual level, the interpersonal level, the familial level, the workplace level, or the social level.

[00:03:14] And all those things are converging all at one time, which is what makes consciousness so fascinating because it helps you hopefully to get a sense into who are you and what do you do and why do you do it? And I find for myself, that question is what's allowed me hopefully to grow some. There's a lot more growing for me to do, but it's helped me to grow and it's helped me to be more intentional and to have more meaningful interactions and have more meaningful impact throughout the course of my lifetime. Yes.

[00:03:43] You mentioned two words there, which are really quite fascinating. So intentional, purposeful, meaning, but also that sort of self-awareness thing. So it's almost like you're going through life, being aware of what's going on rather than that sort of, cause a lot of us drift through life. Don't we? We, there was a guy called Robert Rankin talked about this idea that most of us drift through life. Then we have these moments of shocking reality when we suddenly wake up so that it can be after a trauma or accident or whatever it might be.

[00:04:10] But then you suddenly hit that reality stage and you take stock of your life and understand that they go back into this, like almost like a dream state. So I like this idea of consciousness and it's quite interesting in the world at the moment, cause I guess in your political sphere, you are being quite challenged. It's a bit more, a bit more intentional in the world. I don't want to get you into any sort of trouble without necessarily commentating on the politics if you don't want to. Is it a challenge for different communities in the state at the moment, isn't it?

[00:04:39] I think the challenge has been there for a long time. I think what we're seeing right now is the latest or the, the culmination of what's happened for frankly, the last 60 years and probably even before that. So what you're seeing, the United States of course is a very young country, which in some ways is to say it's a very immature country.

[00:04:59] And one of the reasons why I pushed myself to get outside of the United States, to work abroad, to travel as much as I have is to make sure that I question the lens and the perspective that I have. So it's a whole idea of making yourself object to look at yourself and say, what's influencing you? What are the, the goggles or the, the lenses that help you to see things and perhaps to not see things.

[00:05:27] And I think that's been a big, a bit of a problem to your point around the consciousness. I think if you are LGBTQ, I think if you're black, particularly in this system, and I can't speak to other systems, but in this system, sometimes you don't have the luxury or the privilege of having to wake up or drifting. Through life aimlessly. And then having some triggering event that awakened, that helps you to awaken to some new reality. I think at a very early age, I became aware of that reality.

[00:05:55] I became aware of, there was one society, one set of rules and one set of norms, and there was a different set of norms on many different levels. And so first it might've been being from a working class background or being African American, but then being LGBTQ brought a different layer. And so I think for many of us who come from marginalized or underrepresented communities or live in systems where we don't have full rights and full equity.

[00:06:20] I think we all, we at a very early age recognize that we are, things are different. Things are amiss and that things are not quite the way that we would expect them to be in a just society. And so there is no awakening. You are pretty much awakened for a very long time. And that is the struggle then is to help people to see, can you see what I am experiencing? Can you understand my narrative? But then also to make sure that you also stay open to understanding different narratives as well.

[00:06:49] And also understanding the struggles that other people are facing. So I think that kind of flips that typical journeyman or journeywoman narrative that Joseph Campbell and the hero's model, the hero's narrative on his head a little bit. And it's something that I, I challenge a lot of my students. I challenge people to think about, is it something that we need to be awakened? And sometimes it's a matter of, we know it's there, but we're ignoring or we're dismissing, or we try to avoid something because it makes us uncomfortable.

[00:07:19] And it will cause us to change our political social reality, our standing in society, if we were to actually heed what's happening in the world around us. So for people that don't understand, because this phrase marginalized communities is used a lot. Yes. What does that mean? And how are communities marginalized? I would say a marginalized community is any community that by virtue of its identity, by virtue of who they are, does not have full access to life, liberty,

[00:07:48] in the pursuit of freedom within a particular system. So we might look at, let's say, depending on how you define it, it might be, let's say women. It might be an immigrant community. It might be someone who's a part of a religious minority. And you have to be careful because at the same time that you recognize the beauty, the power, or the status of being part of a marginalized community, that in and of itself doesn't define you, but it helps to shape you. Right.

[00:08:15] Because sometimes I find that people may want to make that struggle and the marginalization, the essence of who they are. And it's, well, it's, it defines the journey, but there's so much more to being a member of a marginalized community. And so we want to resist the impulse of falling to victimhood and the victimization at the same time to recognize the legacy in the history, the crucible in which we've existed as helped us to be who we are. So at the same time, I'm guessing, because you often see quite a lot of celebration of the,

[00:08:46] almost like a toxic celebration of identity as being different. And so it's certainly this, that goes back to identity, isn't it? It's that idea that because I'm something different, I should, that I take, you should take pride in it. But it's almost the, the sense of who you are takes over. Sorry, the sense of what you're talking about takes over from who you are. I think that's what I mean. And actually it's okay to be doing this, doing that, doing the other.

[00:09:13] And you happen to be clear, queer or black or whatever it is. It's how you're defining yourself in that sort of social setting. That social identity thing. I don't know if I'm, I don't know if that's a question or just a load of old nonsense, but pick the bones out of that if you could. Yeah. The way I'm hearing it is recognizing, being able to integrate your full self so that your identity is part of who you are, but it doesn't define you in your totality. And so recognizing that there are many different aspects of who we are.

[00:09:42] So for example, I identify as black or African-American. I identify as LGBTQ or queer, but I'm also Joel. I'm also going back to what I said earlier. I'm a family person. I'm a person who is a poet. I'm a writer. I'm a person who, I'm an athlete. I love being at the beach. I love nature. So there's so many different things that make me who I am. So it's not to say that we can't claim our identity.

[00:10:05] And I would also say to someone, what are the other aspects of who you are that are wonderful and probably make you distinct? Because each of us has our own unique blueprint based on who we are. And sometimes we may look at who we are and think that identity is all of who we are in its entirety. Or we may come to think that identity is universal. So we may think that because I'm X, that the same experience exists for everyone. And really it's just our own personal distinctiveness that makes us different.

[00:10:35] So I think a healthy integrative view of our identity allows us to honor who we are, but also to retain the other aspects of what make us unique and special. So that's great. That answers what is marginalization. So why are people marginalized, would you say? Why are people marginalized? I think this is a very deep philosophical question. I would say sometimes it can be just a matter of people being uncomfortable with difference.

[00:11:03] And because they're uncomfortable with difference, there's a desire to suppress control, to discriminate against, to push to the sides. I think sometimes it's a matter of a zero sum level of thinking where if one group or one person gets something, then automatically the assumption is I must get less of something.

[00:11:24] So there's a scarcity mentality, which again is, I would invite people to elevate their consciousness because I think in terms of abundance, in terms of resources, in terms of living in life, there's more than enough. But there can be this idea that if someone possesses something, therefore I'm going to be depossessed of something. I think greed.

[00:11:44] I think the fact that people, places, systems, hoard resources, and particularly within a, let's say a capitalistic model, the idea is to always accumulate more. We're seeing that with a number of the, such a lot of the disparities that we see in the United States and with a lot of our quote unquote titans of industry, CEOs, what have you, who are making millions and billions of dollars. And yet there are certain people or employees who are struggling just to make a living wage.

[00:12:12] I think there's just a level of avarice and sometimes there's a level of apathy to the human condition. And then of course, all this is on top of just historical situations and inequalities that have existed for a very long time. And so there's that. And then there's also the case too, where sometimes people just don't have as much as other people because maybe they bought into a narrative that they shouldn't. Right. So there's also the individual component.

[00:12:38] I don't want to dismiss the structural, the systemic components, but we also have to recognize too, that the individual also has a role to play in co-signing their, their legacy or co-signing the narratives that have been shared with them. Because we know that not everybody has the same experience.

[00:12:55] Everybody has the same reality, but there also is this thing called time and chance where a, let's say an LGBTQ person in San Francisco has a decidedly different experience than an LGBTQ plus person who might be born in the middle of Russia or might be born in Saudi Arabia. Right. So we have to recognize that there are different cultures. All different parts of America. Exactly. Even Florida or even just outside of San Francisco and California, there might be places where people feel unsafe.

[00:13:24] And so those are the realities that we deal with. And those are the things that help to shape very different experiences no matter where you might be around the world. Yeah. That's very generous of you because actually you've missed out exploitation. Exploitation. The pursuit of power and actually the fundamental cruelty. And there's a sort of, and this is philosophy, there's a sort of fundamental view of humans, isn't there? One, which is that where an animal that's on your upward trajectory towards light and enlightenment and all that sort of stuff appear a lot in the Eastern thing.

[00:13:54] And the other thing is the animal's got its feet in the trough and it's constantly bringing down its fellow man. So in other words, you, if you see competition, you hear it's about destroying the competition rather than actually raising all levels because the ship raises everybody. So it's, it's quite fascinating. You used a word earlier on, which I think was fascinating because you used the word queer. Now, certain parts of the world actually, and certainly actually certain age groups see that word queer as deeply offensive. Now, it's interesting that the word itself has been reclaimed.

[00:14:24] Now, I don't know what it's like in the States. Maybe that's a word that you didn't, you have not had that experience with. But in the UK, it was a real insult in the same that there are words, well, black people, we don't say, which sort of being reclaimed as well. What do you think about this idea about sort of language being reclaimed? And how do you link that to that sort of, go back to that idea of celebration of identity? Yeah.

[00:14:48] With respect to the word queer, I would say to you 10 years ago, I had a very tortuous relationship with the term. Totally. Because if you, yeah. Because if you look at the term and the definition, a simple, very basic definition is abnormal or different from the norm. And so for myself, I said, I don't see myself as abnormal. I don't see myself as somehow being unusual. I feel healthy and normal in who I am in my personhood. But that's where I think it's helpful to study history.

[00:15:15] So then when I look back and I looked at people like Foucault and other people who coined the term queer and started to use queer more, what they were speaking to was not a lack of normalcy in terms of the human condition, but in terms of the societal and systemic structures that existed. So am I normal as a, is a, just as a person, as a human being? Yes. But as, am I abnormal based on the, the structural inequalities of these systems that exist?

[00:15:44] And when I spoke earlier about Avarice, for example, as a reason why there's marginalization to me that is implicit in that is power, control, the desire for some people to hoard power. There's always within society in groups and out groups. I think of it as when I was in high school, there was the in group of those who were very popular. Those were the jocks. Those were the cool kids. Those were the kids that had all this social cachet.

[00:16:09] And then the rest of us who were, let's say the nerds, those who didn't have as much athletic prowess, those who came from a certain area. We were part of the out group. And so even at a very early age, you start to learn who has power in terms of social influence. But then when you add money and resources, and then you add the levers of society, that sort, that begins to change. Right. So am I clear in that sense? Absolutely. So then I started to research more. Now in the United States, there still is very much a generational tension between how people look at that term.

[00:16:38] Because as you noted, the term queer had a very pejorative and still in some places with some people has a very pejorative meaning. And how it's been refashioned and reframed in talking to some of the younger folks who are, I would say, have been mentors or have been called elders. Is queer is seen as an umbrella term that embraces everyone within the LGBTQ plus community.

[00:17:03] So it's seen as not just because there have been times, of course, throughout history where, let's say, cisgender gay men have been the spokespeople or have been the most invisible people for the community. But the sensibilities and the needs and the struggles of those who are lesbian or bisexual or trans or gender fluid or non-binary have been ignored. Or those who perhaps even were gay men, but perhaps were not white or didn't have a certain, belonged to a certain socioeconomic class.

[00:17:32] So queer is the idea that all of us are part of the same, are part of in the same group. And it's all of those of us who are in some ways outcast or some ways are rejecting the, the ideologies and the norms of the quote unquote just society, the perfect society. That's where queer has my understanding of queer, queerness and the queer identity has evolved. And that's almost like a political term.

[00:18:02] Yes. It's very much. It's a political term, but it's also a cultural term because what it's saying is, are you the type of person who is basically just trying to conform? And I don't want to suggest that this is queerness is being a contrarian. Queerness is recognizing that in any society, in any culture, there are gatekeepers who will tell you, this gets back to marginalization. This is the way that you have to be.

[00:18:26] So for example, in the U S or the United States context, there are people who are going to tell you that to be an American, you have to be a mouth breather. You eat red meat. You have to work hard. You have to have a nuclear family. You have to wave the flag constantly. You have to buy into this militaristic hierarchical imperial mindset. And if you don't, then somehow you're less American.

[00:18:53] But there are also more subtle messages in terms of how we look at sexuality, how we look at maleness and femaleness, who gets represented as being the quintessential American. And so queerness, in a way, could go much further than that. But what I would say is in terms of sexuality and identity, what is very challenging is this very concept that there's just this binary way of looking at things as either you're this or you're that.

[00:19:19] And that's a larger idea around queer ideology. But in terms of queer identity, it's been something that has been more, I would say, embracing and more inclusive of all the different gender and sexual minorities in the larger umbrella of the LGBTQ plus community. Because sometimes when we talk about LGBTQ plus, we're assuming that everybody is the same, but you really have this very three dimensional model that really does not cover a lot of people.

[00:19:48] And so that's why queer, I think has been embraced by so many people, particularly people who are Gen Y and Gen Z and part of the alpha generation. And it is handy to be able to say queer rather than LGBTQIA plus, which you get a lot. And you have this accusation that it's sort of alphabet soup, which is fine. I love the word queer, I think it's a celebration of intra, well, interestingness. Now, before we get into your book, which is fascinating in itself, tell us a little bit, because I haven't actually asked my second question yet. No worries. What is it that you do?

[00:20:18] What is it that I do? I think the short answer is probably too much. And I say that just to be just a joke. So I'm an author. So I wrote my book, Souls of Queer Folk in 2023, which I'm sure we'll get to. So I'll leave that discussion there. But that was the culmination of a long journey. I'm about to put out another book, actually, in about seven weeks that talks about healing and the need for healing and what healing looks like. So I'm an author and poet.

[00:20:46] And the reason I leave with those is because if I didn't do anything else, even at my last breath, I would still be writing. I would still be creating and generating poetry. I also am a professor, so I teach, I've taught not only here in the States, but I've also, I teach in France and in Europe. So I spend a great deal of time in Europe. And Paris is my, one of my many homes around the world. And I'm also an organizational development consultant. So when you say that to people, they're like, what does that mean? Because consultants are a dime a dozen.

[00:21:15] And what I basically say is I'm an awareness agent that goes into systems to help them work better and to bring more humanity to the people who are part of the system. So if you work for an organization, if you're part of a company, how can we make sure that you're more, you're, there's more safety for you to be more visible, for you to leverage your skill sets and your talents, for you to do something that has positive impact for the community, for the world, for the globe.

[00:21:45] And we do that by focusing on culture, strategy, and leadership. The culture, how do people operate? Because you can have a great idea. So a lot of people, when they think about companies, there's a service and there's a product that perhaps is provided. But then what's the culture that gets that product or service to you as the end user?

[00:22:05] The strategy, how do you make sure that you continue to do and provide that good and service in a way that's innovative and takes into account all the trends that are happening in the world, something that's cutting edge and helps to keep the company, the organization ahead of competition. But then there's leadership. How do you lead? And not just how do you engage with the people who are your clients, but also how do you engage with the people who are part of the enterprise or part of the community?

[00:22:33] How do you inspire them and lead them in a better place than they would have been otherwise? And how do you get the best out of people? And we may think that those things are pretty straightforward and commonplace. I can tell you the reason why I have been successful and gainfully employed as a business owner is because leadership is not always the most intuitive thing, surprisingly.

[00:22:56] And there are a lot of people whose leadership models are fairly traditional and outdated, which is why a lot of this work is so very important.

[00:23:34] Yeah. And the question is, why do you think that when I'm a player who is a leader of the leadership practice? And the sort of sub thing is how understanding LGBTQ culture can transform your leadership practice. So before we dive into that, which is a subject I'm absolutely fascinated in, and we'll talk a bit about the new book in a bit, if that's okay. But who did you write this for? Initially, I wrote it for myself and I wrote it from other people who were on the journey. So let me take you way back when I was a teenager.

[00:24:03] And when I was becoming aware of myself and aware of the world, there were certain questions I had as to what does it mean to have this quote unquote superpower? What does it mean to be LGBTQ? And when you grow up in any culture, there are traditions, there's learning, there's knowledge that's passed on.

[00:24:22] So for example, I was taught by the school and implicitly by all the different systems that were around me, what it meant to be quote unquote, be a good United States citizen. And I was also taught by my family, thankfully in my community, what it meant to be black or African-American. I didn't have those same role models and those same inputs as a queer person. So for a long time, you find out just through, I would say, exploration.

[00:24:51] You try something, you bump into other people, you're learning along the way. But there was nothing clear that said to me, this is what it means to be LGBTQ or here's some of the history, here's some of the values. And so I grew up having that curiosity, but also that hunger to know more about myself. And as I got older, those questions persisted.

[00:25:13] And what I found interesting is that even as I connected with more LGBTQ people and even as I came out, the questions still maintained or still were there. And I also found that people didn't seem to have much interest in answering those questions. It was almost like there was this understood idea that if you're gay, there's same-sex attraction, there's romantic attraction, there's familial connection with someone who's of the same sex. But also, I always knew there was something deeper.

[00:25:39] And I remember having a conversation with a friend and saying, why is no one talking about this? And why are we just accepting this norm? Okay, so again, getting back to the idea of querying or being querying your mindset, saying this superficial idea of what it means to be LGBTQ cannot be it. This just can't be the essential or the basic idea of what it means to be LGBTQ. Why is no one writing this?

[00:26:04] And my friend looked me in the eye and she said to me, the reason no one has written it is because that's your job. That's what you're here to do. That's your purpose. You're supposed to write it. So stop complaining and start writing. I have very direct and very loving, but very direct friends. So that led me on this journey to do the research and to start thinking about what does it mean to be part of this community and what are the values, right, to get a little bit deeper.

[00:26:31] Because what often happens with any group is people can see behaviors and they think that those behaviors in and of themselves tell the whole story when in fact they don't. So you have to do more research and more investigation, which I'm sure you understand, of course, given your work. So I decided to dig a little bit deeper. And that's what led me to the discovery. But even that discovery at first was shallow. So then I started to realize, okay, I want to have this conversation.

[00:26:58] I want to engage in this exercise for LGBTQ people across the world because I got very frustrated and annoyed with people saying to me, your culture is just this. And even this would be, even with well-meaning people, allies, people who were not necessarily anti-LGBTQ, but people who would say, oh, being part of the community means you just love to party. And you're just going to have a lot of sex. And you're. Cushions. Nice cushions. You have this innate decorative sense.

[00:27:25] You're just going to be that cool person that has this really nice chic personality. And I was like, those are called stereotypes. And those are very dangerous because while they may seem innocent on the surface, it still works in a way to dehumanize people. And it works in a way to rob people of their cultural legacy and to really only see LGBTQ people as kind of these cartoons or these avatars or these just these jesters. So that's what pushed me to go further.

[00:27:54] So then as I found out and did conducted my research and I started to realize that values that are very much inherent to the community. What I didn't realize is that here's all this wonderful stuff. Right. So if you take something, for example, like resilience, since I see that's there and this is your podcast title. And I thought to myself, what are people looking for in their leaders? Because we talked about the leadership challenge or the leadership dilemma that we're facing here globally, which I agree with.

[00:28:21] And not surprisingly or surprisingly, a lot of what people said they were missing or not seeing with their leaders is exactly what we started. What I saw in my research that LGBTQ people exemplified just by virtue of leading their quote unquote authentic lives or pursuing their leading their cultural or following their cultural legacy.

[00:28:47] And as I started to talk to more people, especially after the pandemic, what I started to say to people is, if you see a group that has been persecuted as we have and continues to face persecution as we do all over the world. But yet there's something about us where we've been able to hold on to our joy. We've been able to hold on to our sense of purpose.

[00:29:11] We've been able to find meaning and we still seem to be not just thriving, but surviving and continuing to gain power. And when I say power, I don't mean political power per se, but internal communal power, spiritual power. I would think that's something to investigate, right? What did they have?

[00:29:32] What is it that they're doing that's allowing them to overcome all these obstacles and all these challenges, no matter where we're talking or what part of the world we're reviewing or examining? And so that's what led me then to write the book, because initially I thought the book was just going to be a reframing or reintroduction of the LGBTQ plus community to the world. But then I realized it's not just a matter of reintroducing ourselves.

[00:29:58] It's a matter of helping people to understand the leadership, wisdom and expertise that we have that benefits everybody. So it's not just something that's just for us. It is something that I think a lot of people need because we possess a lot of skills and tools, resources, but also wisdom that I think has been unheralded, probably not honored, but also just not valued that I think the world could really benefit from in this day and age. Yeah, that's really fascinating. It's a lot to go out there.

[00:30:27] And I totally agree about this community. I have meetings in this community on a regular basis and people will sit in a group of people who are queer and we'll talk about the burnout and the exhaustion and such like. And I often point out, but you're still here, that is resilience. Resilience is showing up in the face of all this nonsense and such. And I often find to understand oneself in this world is to really have thought very deeply about who you are, what you are, what you stand for, how you stand for that, how you show up as well, because that's very different.

[00:30:56] And I know you develop some leadership competencies and some of them I understand straight away, but two I was particularly impressed with are the idea of, in a sense, the ROI of difference that you get from intersectionality and that you get from what you call deep empathy, I think. And this idea that organizations triumph when they can bring together disparate groups of people, because actually that creation of in-group, out-groups is such a zero-sum game, isn't it?

[00:31:22] And actually, if you're thinking to yourself, if you see that organizations are about productivity and not about satisfaction, you know that satisfaction is part of productivity. And that fundamentally organizations are about how much more effort can we get than we actually pay for, really, at the end of the world. That's what it's really all about, isn't it? And so treating people as individuals, understanding how you harness the potential and enjoyment and satisfaction of those individuals, how you harness that difference, should be in everyone's self. It should be an organizational interest, shouldn't it?

[00:31:52] And yet, I think it comes back to the sort of individual thing we talked about earlier, isn't it? That power, that corruption, that, you know, that othersness, that lack of actual understanding of that difference is about celebration. It's not about how you mitigate and mimic everything the same. It's interesting if you look at the tech bros, they're all about one way of doing it, it's their way. They very rarely think, and yet themselves, they're very different. And they got to where they were through difference. And now they've got to where they are.

[00:32:22] They want to destroy the difference that everybody else brings. So it's, by its very nature, difference must be threatening. So it takes a good leader, because a good leader fundamentally has to be a good human being to be able to celebrate that difference and make the most of it. I think a good leader has to have interrogated themselves and done some deep work. So many people, of course, and I get where this comes from. When they think about leadership, they're thinking, how do I reach this group? How do I connect with this person?

[00:32:52] How do I make sure that this, those people out there, whoever those people may be, can do X? And that's important. But what's more important is that you have internal alignment, that you clear on who you are and that you've investigated that. And let's think about what happens with business, right? You have an idea. You have a service. You have something that you want to contribute. So who are you surrounding yourself with? People who also perhaps see the value or the utility of that idea. And they see things perhaps the same way. They understand the problem statement.

[00:33:21] They understand the need in the market. They understand the social landscape. They say, yes, we see them. But what that tends to do in the aggregate is contribute to groupthink because you tend to bring people who are thinking just like you. The studies show, for example, that when we think about ism or prejudice or bias, most of it is not necessarily intentional.

[00:33:41] It is the byproduct of people simply bringing people into their fold, into their sphere, who are like them and forgetting to have a macro view to get on the balcony and to say, what am I missing? What perspectives have I not entertained? Who else can I bring into the fold who might challenge my thinking or help me to see things differently in a way that I haven't done before?

[00:34:00] But if you're not thinking that way, and more importantly, if you've not been trained to navigate multicultural environments and to build relationships and to talk with people who are different with you and to solicit or to create the space for where those ideas can be shared, then you continue to replicate the same types of ideas and beliefs that you've always had, which means that you create systems and structures that support one group of people that exclude other types of people.

[00:34:27] So I think that happens in business where, and again, I'm being diplomatic because we also know there are times where, to your point around the tech bros, it's really about, I want to make sure that I maintain control and power. And any type of dissent is a challenge to my hegemony. It is a threat to my sense of, to my level of control and whatnot, which is what I think you're also very much seeing here in the United States. There's no question about that. I think a good leader has to understand their limitations.

[00:34:55] A good leader has to understand where perhaps there are some quote unquote blind spots. A good leader has to understand that their way of doing things will produce something, but perhaps a different or a new idea introduced into the mix can help produce something that's even bigger. And not be afraid of the dissent that is necessary in order to produce those different ideas.

[00:35:21] If you've gotten to a place though, where you're a tech bro, as an example, and you've been able to do things that you bought into this whole idea that I did all this by myself, the idea of someone challenging you becomes very threatening. There's the ego is massively involved and it becomes difficult to accept differences of ideas. So you see that it's really the lack of a growth mindset. So you see a difference of opinion as a threat. You see it as something to be feared.

[00:35:49] You see it as something to be challenged and then ultimately suppressed because that idea disrupts your way of seeing the world, which is how you've been able to build your empire or whatnot. But that's how empires or I would say how businesses sustain themselves is by not being stagnant, not relying on the status quo, but realizing that there's different ways of looking at things. But it's very prevalent.

[00:36:08] And I, the leaders who I think what we're basically seeing is there's a very basic leadership model that I've seen, not just in the North America, but I've seen in Europe. I've seen in Asia, I've seen in Africa as well, which is the idea that as a leader, I always have to be tough. I have to be omniscient. I have to know everything. And I just think that's just an incredible burden.

[00:36:36] As a leader of my own, it's a lot to carry. I would want to do that. And I just think to myself, why would we think? But then again, if we create this idea that it's the lone ranger or the individual who's been able to make things happen, then it becomes an easier way to deny people access to resources, to power, because then we can say I'm the one who did X, Y, and Z.

[00:36:58] And for me to even entertain the idea that other people helped me to amass my fortune and my power, that means I have to also recognize that other people are deserving of money and compensation. And that can happen in the system, which I mean a capitalistic system where we teach people that the way that people succeed is just by their own individual stubborn effort. Yeah. And you, and it's passion to say to me, you absolutely glorify success. You glorify in a sort of fetishistic way, the sort of people that make a lot of money and such.

[00:37:27] And you look at some tech bros and how they're not engineers. They're not inventors. They're nothing else than financiers who are good salespeople who've been able to get themselves to a place where if you have a lot of money, you can get lots more. And you have a lot of patronage that allows you to get there. Fair enough. However, the whole, you remember as an OD specialist, as I did, our fundamental training is about you build an organization where the team is greater than some of its parts. Correct.

[00:37:53] And when you look at teams with leaders, the primary issue with the non-performance of a team is usually the leader, but the leader will set the angle. I've got difficult people and they're failed to accept that they're the difficult person. I don't subscribe to the idea of difficult people, but should I, if I did, that would be the thing, isn't it? I can't think of it. I can't think of a single underperforming issue where there's been a failure of management or leadership at some point in that process. Not one. I agree. And that's a difficult conversation to have.

[00:38:22] And I've had a number of those conversations to say to leaders and even with myself to say, if your organization is not performing well, where have you perhaps fallen short? And that's, that's put me in difficult situations where sometimes I've not been invited back. I've not been brought back into boardrooms or conference rooms because those are the uncomfortable truths, but that's what you have to face.

[00:38:43] Right. And so again, to be a leader and to be a transformational leader requires a constant self-examination, a constant interrogation of who one is and how one is meeting the moment. Because when we were in those spaces, anytime that we come into contact with someone else, anytime that we rub shoulders with someone else, it is teaching us about who we are. It's teaching us about our value system. It's teaching us about how we view the world. It's teaching us about how we, our work ethic, our work style, how we view people.

[00:39:11] And so the question is, do we dismiss those lessons and do we dismiss that information? Do we use it as an opportunity to be more reflective and to say, what can I learn myself? And that's one of the beautiful things about the LGBTQ plus community is because to be, to self-identify as LGBTQ, you have to go through a process of intense self-interrogation.

[00:39:32] Some people call this coming out, but even before you come out, there's a journey where you have to recognize what's happening with me and what's happening within the system. And where is there a difference? Where is a commonality? But who am I as a result of, in my current form as a, as a self or an individual entity, who am I?

[00:39:53] And I think that by very self, hopefully, and I'm not saying this is always the case because there are a number of LGBTQ leaders who are also very much lacking in self-awareness and self-knowledge. Oh yeah. Many of them who are upholding a lot of the things that we're seeing around the world. If we're talking about Palantir and whatnot. Yeah. I should just quit. I lost them about. Yes.

[00:40:12] But hopefully that is the prerequisite or the foundation for you to continue to engage in this process of self-interrogation and self-awareness to say, where am I meeting the mark? Where does my intent create the impact that I want? And where does my intent not create the impact that I want? And what behaviors do I need to adjust? What thoughts, deeds, and words do I need to perhaps change in order to create new outcomes in the environment?

[00:40:41] So that's really what leadership to me is about is recognizing that all things is more of an inside out phenomena. It is not a, let me reach you first. It's not just an external exercise. It's really focused on internality. If you really want to be the most successful type of leader. And I think people know that. And that's why when people are, they see leaders who are inauthentic, who sometimes are, don't have scruples or don't seem to have that mooring. People know it.

[00:41:08] And that's why people sometimes end up leaving organizations. And as we both know, people don't leave organizations. They leave managers. They leave their leaders because they don't feel like they can take inspiration or guidance from them. And let's be honest. I've met some great people that look terrible leaders as well. Absolutely. It's not restricted to everybody else. Being queer doesn't make you automatically. It just makes you different, isn't it? And if you don't celebrate that yourself. So it's a, so I bought the book, can't wait to read it. Souls of queer folk, Amazon, all the usual places and a special officer in the UK. And I'll go, it's really inaudible.

[00:41:38] So yeah, you could listen to Joel's voice for a little while, but you just did a brilliant bit of American selling earlier, which was that you just trailed the idea of the new book coming. So before we wrap up, what's the new book that I think it's dropping? You said something about healing. Is that right? It is. It's called, I had to become the father, the art of healing, reconciliation, repair, and letting go. So when's this coming out? It'll come out August, mid August.

[00:42:04] So we haven't set the exact date, but seven weeks just about, it'll be here. Wow. The reason why that book is important, or the reason why I wrote the book is to your point, when you can say this explicitly, when we don't heal, we don't reach our full potential, but we also create harm for other people.

[00:42:26] And I've seen a number of leaders who have not done their own internal work where, and so what ends up happening is that they end up again, replicating harm. And when I talk leadership, I want to be very clear, leadership in terms of their families, in terms of the communities, in terms of their organizations, and oftentimes in terms of themselves. Yeah, absolutely. So when I wrote the book, I started off thinking, why are people talking? I hear a lot of talk about healing, but what does it mean? What does it look like? How does it happen?

[00:42:55] Who is it for? And then of course, I didn't want to write a book of seven steps to healing. I think that would be extremely boring. Done and ready. Then I had to, exactly. But then I had to ask myself, what's your healing story? How have you healed? So rather than writing a book that says, this is how you have to heal, which I think will be very arrogant and will be very poorly received.

[00:43:17] I write what's called an inspirational case study to say, this is how I was able to address healing in a number of different areas, to be the best leader, whether it's in my marriage, my family, my home, my community. And to inspire other people to find the quote unquote recipe for themselves, to make sure that they're living an empowered life. Because when I got to the end of the book, what I'll tell you, Russell, is I realized we're always healing from something. Why?

[00:43:43] Because there's 8 billion people on this planet and just by virtue of people pursuing their own goals and agendas, people tend to bump up against you or they just may do things that may cause injury unintentionally. But how you recover from that, the amount of resilience that you exhibit in an intentional way, determines the quality of your life. And I'm, I want to be, I want to inspire and help people to live empowered, fulfilled, joyous lives, no matter where they are around the planet. So that's why I wrote that book.

[00:44:13] So how can people find out more about your work? You can certainly go to joeldavisbrown.com. You can follow me on LinkedIn. You can also follow me on Instagram at Joel A. Brown, if you're into Instagram. And I encourage your listeners to reach out. I like getting notes and questions from people. I'm trying to be as friendly as possible.

[00:44:35] And I like engaging because I think in those, in that engagement is again, where you learn, learn to question your ideas, you sharpen your tool set and you become a better person. So that's where you can find me if anybody wants to reach out. Brilliant. It's been an absolute joy to talk to you this afternoon. Absolutely fascinating. And, and you've answered all the questions who I'm sure you'd be incredibly enlightening for people that aren't familiar with this world. So thanks for spending time with us today. You take care. Thank you.

[00:45:04] Hi, I hope you found that episode useful and entertaining. If you want to support our work, please go to resilienceunravel.com. And you can become a member there as well. You can also send us a question there and even apply to do a podcast. You can also leave a review on Apple podcasts or any of the other podcast hosts of your choice, as well as getting hold of some useful resources about resilience and a whole lot more.

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