Dr. Kim Foster on Redesigning Identity: Recognise, Redesign, Ritualise

[00:00:03] Hi, I'm Dr. Russell Thackeray and welcome to Resilience Unravelled, a podcast with new ideas, new thoughts and new thinking about resilience. Guests with remarkable stories, products and services that can really power up your own mindset and resilience. You can also go to our site for more information, to ask questions or to access some of our resources at www.resilienceunravelled.com. Let's get started.

[00:00:33] Hello and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled. And in our series of very interesting people from across the pond who are in Canada, I'm delighted to be talking to Dr Ephraim Ebstein, who is sitting resplendent in front of me, but not in Canada, Kim. I think you're somewhere closer to God's favourite city. Where are you today? It's true. I am in London today. Fantastic. And is this a holiday you're on or are you doing some sort of pilgrimage?

[00:01:02] Actually, I spend every summer in the UK. What have you done to deserve that? I was raised by British parents, so I feel very at home here in the UK. And my husband also, although he wasn't raised by British parents, but he also, we both just happen to, conveniently enough, really enjoy everything that is here in Britain and how close it is to Europe.

[00:01:27] So we just managed to finagle our lifestyle so that we are at our home in Canada, on the west coast of Canada, on Vancouver Island. Oh wow. Yeah.

[00:01:38] That's where we spend the school year for our boys who are in school there in Canada. And in Canada, we have a shorter summer holiday than you have here. So we get all of July and August off of the school. So we come over and we have a place here in London. And this is where we spend our summers enjoying everything that London has to offer.

[00:02:02] Well, I was going to say, what's your favorite thing to do with that? That's just so irrelevant, isn't it? So I just got stuck. And so you've said you're in Vancouver Island, which is an astonishingly beautiful part of the world, isn't it? It is an astonishingly beautiful place. Yes. I love that mountain opposite the city of Vancouver. You can go up and there's skiing and there's the bears that live up there. And, you know, it's just fantastic. I think we're all slightly obsessed by bears, but there you go. Some of them are very interesting, but they're not as exciting. Not as exciting, not as sexy as bears. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:31] We've already started telling us a bit about yourself. So why don't you continue? Anything else you want to add?

[00:02:36] Yes. What else can I add? I am a recovering family doctor. I was a doctor in my original, that was my original career. And yeah, although we're going to talk about identity and how wrapped up that is, but I do like to share that because it is the context of who I am, what I, what I, my whole background and the lens that I bring to everything that I do now.

[00:03:03] So, which is quite different than being a family doctor or a GP, as you would call it here. So your doctorate is in medicine. So you're an MD. Exactly. I have an MD. Yeah. So you started as a family doctor and it sounds like you're not doing that anymore. The recovering doctor is quite a fascinating phrase. What did you need to recover from?

[00:03:23] Quite a few things. No, actually, it wasn't so much the patients. I loved the patients. That's why I went into medicine was to help people and to make a difference. And it was so much of all of the other stuff that really showed me that I was not able to do what I came here to do through the constraints of the healthcare system and the way that conventional medicine and conventional healthcare is set up.

[00:03:50] So I started looking for another way to find the fulfillment and the meaning that I was, had been seeking since I decided when I was, I decided when I was 17, that I was going to be a doctor, that I wanted to go to medical school. And when you, I knew exactly nothing about anything about myself, the world when I was 17 and being an achievement oriented person. Once I made that decision, it was a matter of just execute on that project, which was challenging for sure.

[00:04:19] Obviously getting into medical school, obviously getting into medical school, all of those pieces, but I wasn't really reflecting much or thinking, is this the right path? It was more like, how do I get there? How do I achieve this thing?

[00:04:30] And yes, but then I practiced for 20 years as a GP and it was amazing and frustrating and all the things. And then, but like I said, in those last few years is when I started to really seek the meaning that I had been looking for when I first decided that I wanted to go into medicine.

[00:04:52] Okay. Fantastic. I like the way you characterized that. So you wanted to be something and then you found meaning from what happened afterwards. What are you doing now? Where are all this meaning is coming from? Glowing in abundance.

[00:05:03] Yes. So now I am an author. I'm a speaker. I am a YouTube creator. I am a coach and an online educator. So I wear all kinds of interesting hats now. All kinds of different ways that I have found to help people improve their lives, optimize their experience in life. And because like I said, that's what I originally went into it for.

[00:05:31] And I, but I discovered that there are a variety of ways that you can actually help people in this life. So that's what I'm doing through all of those different means. Okay. Now I'm fascinated by identity and I know you want to talk about it today. So should we start by thinking about how you're defining identity, what it means to you? Because there are all a few different ways of thinking about it. So let's see your, let's see your approach definition almost.

[00:06:00] Yeah. I think of identity as what we say to ourselves about who we are in this world. And now, and that's fairly simple. It's what we say to ourselves, but that identity statement, those identity statements that we carry with us, they are often not from us originally.

[00:06:20] They are often from, that we've inherited and picked up along the way. Things that we've been told that we are, things that we've been told that we're good at or not good at. And that's from all kinds of sources as we move into adulthood and then through adulthood. And all of those things go into a person's sense of their own identity.

[00:06:43] But what we carry it like a statement, like I'm the good student or I'm not an athlete or I'm a reader or whatever it is. I'm a runner. Whatever identity statements that we carry with us because we've accumulated it from so many different sources. And it comes out as these statements that we make about ourselves, that we believe because we hear it inside our own head.

[00:07:08] And very often, even a positive identity can be limiting. And that's what I like to expose. So can you give me an example of how we either define our identity or our entity defines us? Yeah, so there's most people can think of this in their own lives once they start to start to become aware of it.

[00:07:31] But for me, so for a long time, I was when I was much younger, I was the artistic one. So I was really into and I got a lot of reward and praise for being artistic, being creative, creative art, writing, singing, all of those kinds of things. So I felt good and I was occupied a space as being an artistic one until I hit high school.

[00:07:58] So I never would have considered a career in a scientific field. When I hit high school, I had a teacher who opened my eyes to that I actually was better at math than I thought I was. And that started to change my identity. And I found that I really started to enjoy science classes. I was intending to drop science classes as soon as I could. I started to really enjoy the puzzle of math.

[00:08:28] It very much went against my identity as the artistic kid because artistic girls are not good at math. That makes sense, right? In your worldview. So that was my first real identity conflict that I experienced. And so then I started to identify because then I started to get rewarded and validated for being good at science and math. Girls are good at science and math, get very much encouraged to go into a career in one of those fields.

[00:08:56] And so that's what I did. And so then that became a new identity that I absorbed and adopted and wore because it kept me feeling safe and comfortable because I knew who I was in the world because of that. Interesting. And so you're saying, so in other words, you were defined as a thing and then it changed. Yeah, exactly. So do you think, because actually it's interesting, isn't it? I absolutely buy into this.

[00:09:24] This social identity, which is defined by someone else in a sense, is quite fascinating, isn't it? Is there a process there for defining one's own identity? Is that part of what you're doing? That's a big part of what I do now because so many of us come through into adulthood with these identities that were assigned by other people in our life. People who were often, they love us, they're well-meaning, they want to give us structure to our life and our goals.

[00:09:52] And typically this is in the form of parents or extended family or teachers often label it, telling us what we're good at, what we're not good at, encouraging us in certain ways. But that's not necessarily our absolute truth. And because you're even, like I said, even a good identity can be limiting.

[00:10:11] So when people are saying, oh, I'm artistic, so creative, artistic, that was great, except that it actually made me feel like, okay, but then that logically means that science and math and those kinds of subjects are, that's not for me. And so that's when people are feeling stuck, when they're feeling limited, when they're feeling like they're missing something.

[00:10:34] A lot of the time it's because they are operating from this identity that they have about themselves and what they believe is possible for them and what they believe is not possible for them. And so starting to question that and then reclaiming a new identity, because we can absolutely change that at any point in life. There is no end point where it's written in stone, it's absolute, you can't change it anymore.

[00:11:01] But you have to be aware of it, first of all, and that you're operating from that. And then you have to have the ability to imagine, what else could I actually do? What other identity could I actually occupy? And how would that go? You're really just talking about mindset here rather than identity, because you're saying my...

[00:11:23] Because actually one of the challenges about what you're saying is you can change your identity, but identities has to be reinforced by your ability to carry off that identity. So in other words, I could say I'm a... I'm trying to think of something. Very young and handsome and an astronaut. And no one could I be.

[00:11:40] So there has to be some sort of reinforcing process here that builds on what you have as capabilities or capacities, rather than just like a wild sort of, you know, I'm now with this. Yes, absolutely. Because that... And that's often why I find that affirmations alone really don't do it, because your brain is always seeking proof or evidence of what you're telling it.

[00:12:04] And so if you have proved over and over again that you're a quitter, that you don't stick with things, then if you just suddenly one day, one morning decide, I'm going to stick with this thing, your brain checks that record against all the evidence that it has been gathering all along. No, actually, you quit that. You let that go. All of those kinds of things. So you do absolutely. And that's part of my process is to create, help people to find ways to start to build identity evidence.

[00:12:31] And the best way to do that really is in small ways, not some big grand gesture, but in something small, regular daily acts that your brain can start to log evidence for this new identity being true. So I'll give you an example. So one of the one of my latest projects and the things that I'm obsessed with is learning how to play golf. So I've been learning how to play golf for about a year and a half. And because... We'll give you another lifetime to go then.

[00:13:01] Yes, I do. Before I can do anything. Yeah, it's a long-term game plan. But when I... I did not grow up thinking of myself as an athlete at all. I was not the sporty one. Again, an identity that I carried through. I did not... I didn't have any sports that I particularly did. And so to start to pick up a new sport at this stage of the game, it would have been very easy for me to have every time that I tried to...

[00:13:30] That I went to the driving range, that I had an awkward shot, got the etiquette wrong, all the things. That is really easy to do and feel that that could have absolutely been logged as further evidence. And this isn't for you. This is not the kind of thing that you can do. So I had to make a conscious decision that if I wanted to actually have the identity of I'm a golfer, not just I'm trying to play golf and I'm not very good.

[00:13:55] Like all the things that we would normally say to ourselves, I had to be really intentional and monitor my thoughts on this. And instead, every time that I signed up for a lesson and went, even though I felt awkward, that I logged that as evidence. This is because I am becoming a golfer. I am someone who is learning how to be really bad at something in public. I am beginning... being a beginner in my 50s. There are just so many...

[00:14:23] So this was not me saying, I am a professional golfer. I am part of the LPGA now. Or I'm about to go on tour. I wasn't making those wild and crazy identity statements that my brain, of course, would have said, sorry, that is just not the truth. But I made more like... And I call it an identity ladder or a bridge identity. I am learning how to do this. I am someone who can try things that are very uncomfortable in it and do it in public in front of people.

[00:14:51] Because golf is something that you do, you learn in front of people and it can be very uncomfortable and awkward. But every time I did that, I logged that as identity evidence.

[00:15:28] Interesting. I say, hi, my name's whatever my name is. And I'm a mom or a mom, as we say in this country. And then people go through that process, don't they, where they lose that sense of identity. Pops, because kids leave home or perhaps because it's been redundant. So that is soul-searching, that sense of, I don't know who I am anymore. And I've often followed and watched the female gender one around the idea that those people who experience that then suddenly settle back down again when they become grandparents.

[00:15:56] Because it's almost as if that soul-searching identity, which has been set for them, has been reset. Because actually, that's the next iteration of that thing. And the same as if you're a guy and you get a new job, then you're saying, oh, how are this? I'm trying to think what's the supervision of that. In a country, it's not terribly boring. But do you know what I mean? I just wonder whether that's true in your experience and whether that matters. Oh, yeah. I definitely find that is true. And I absolutely think that it matters.

[00:16:26] Because you're right, the identity that a lot of women will hold onto as one of the core pieces of their identity, you're right, is a mother. And that's because a lot of society tells us that that's what it means to be a successful woman, is to be a nurturer, to be a caregiver.

[00:16:49] And so if we over-identify with that one role in our lives, as much as it is a very big role, of course. But if we over-identify with that and that becomes our whole meaning, then it's a problem because it is a season of life. It feels like a very long season of life. I have two boys. So I know. Yes. But it is a season that does have an end point.

[00:17:16] And then an awful lot of women are in exactly what you describe in that crisis of identity. Because who are you now? Now that you're not needed to play your one and only role in this world, now that you're not needed as a nurturer or the caregiver, this is not what you do every day. Who are you? And that can be so destabilizing. And like you said, if a man is identifying, can also be a father.

[00:17:41] But if his core identity is in his professional life, that doesn't have that basic seasonal rhythm the way that parenthood does. It can continue and transcend wherever you are in your personal life with your marriage or your kids, your family. So yes, that one factor alone can precipitate a lot of identity crises in women, much more so than for men. It's interesting looking at the political thing of identity at the moment.

[00:18:11] Because what you've got with a lot of women is their almost womenhood has been defined by your ability to have children. Especially in countries that we've probably both heard of, close to you and Baldwin. But that's also a sort of a right-wing populist idea that women are defined by that. And that's fascinating, isn't it? Because that's almost this thing that one's identity is being created by someone else. And that has been put into a box. And I often, as knowing people who are female who don't have children for choice or because they don't want it or because they can't.

[00:18:39] And it is quite interesting how other women will almost critique or almost devalue someone else's identity because they have not had that socially approved thing. And I always think there's a sisterhood that we think would be supportive, but it seems to be quite the contrary. Which is odd, because actually you don't get that so much on the male side of the identity thing. I know we're coming on to work in a minute, but I just wonder what you think about that.

[00:19:05] Oh yeah, I agree. I wish that it weren't like that, but it absolutely is. And I think a lot of that critique and criticizing others is from fear and from feeling threatened and vulnerable in your own choices. And so there's lots of reasons why women who have one particular path are going to be critical of women who are on a different trajectory and a different pathway. And this is not universally true, of course.

[00:19:31] There are lots of women who don't take that approach, but there's enough that it can be very, it can be hostile. Absolutely. I remember being on the receiving end of that sort of hostility when I was a young mom. Definitely. Yeah. Interesting. I remember someone ringing me up as a therapist and saying, hi, can I talk to you? I'm saying, oh, if you must have thing. I'm saying I just have no idea who I am. I've reached a certain point in my life and I have lost myself.

[00:19:55] I don't know where I am. And I went through a series of processes and such like, and I'm guessing you have a series of processes too. So I'm just wondering what your approach is to help people either rediscover themselves or reset something. The process, the overarching, I have a lot of different tools and things that I use, but the basic process as a sort of an umbrella is three R's. So recognize, redesign, and then ritualize.

[00:20:20] So the first recognize, and that it's just so important because most of us don't really even hear ourselves say these identity statements to ourselves as though it's something that's optional or something that could be. It's something that just absolutely sounds like it's the truth. Like we're, we would say it very neutrally, almost like we're describing our eye color. So the first thing is to really recognize what are you saying? I'm terrible with money. I'm disorganized.

[00:20:49] I'm the one who everyone depends on. Whatever it is, it's this, these I am statements that you weren't born like that, which means that you accumulated, you acquired it somewhere along the way, which means that you can actually rewrite it if you want to, if you are feeling like that is, has become a limit for you. So that's the first is really, is recognized. And that is no small task. The second is redesign.

[00:21:12] So that is when we identify the identity gaps because the identity that got you this far, and it might have gotten you quite far. You might have actually accomplished quite a lot under a certain identity. But for many people, the identity that got you here is not going to be the one that will take you to your next level or whatever you want to create or become next.

[00:21:34] So that's the redesigning process is allowing yourself, giving yourself permission to actually redesign your own identity and what that would look like. But then just as we were talking about before, the third R is ritualized. This is when you actually have to put it into action. So this is not just about, oh, just dream about a thing and it will become so. But you have to actually do things.

[00:21:57] You have to follow it up with daily habits and actions that, like we talked about, provide that proof that your brain can say, okay, yes, I can see we are becoming this person now. And then that becomes a self-enforcing cycle. Yeah, makes sense. Because it's what we used to call years ago a paradigm shift, isn't it? This idea about seeing our worldview, our view of ourselves being reset. That's interesting. It would be a shame if you haven't written a book that encapsulates all these fantastic ideas and processes.

[00:22:27] Is this on the horizon? Tell me about that. Have you got a new identity as an author, perhaps? Yes, and I actually have written a book and it just got released last week, two weeks ago. I'm losing track of time. But yes, Redesigning You is the name of the book. And who's it been for? It is written for people who the subtitle is change your inner story, transform your health.

[00:22:53] And the way that I define health and wellness is not just physical health and wellness, but it's more your entire life, your spiritual health, work health, relationship health, all of those pieces. But of course, being an MD, that I come to it from the perspective of your health and wellness, because this is certainly what I saw all the time when I was working as a family doctor. But it's for the person who has tried to, you know, their life looks good on paper.

[00:23:22] It looks like they've maybe achieved quite a few things or have the trappings of what we're all supposed to want, but are unable to move past into the next level of what they would like to achieve. Feeling stuck. They also might have tried to adopt new habits to optimize their health or optimize their well-being.

[00:23:43] And for some reason, it maybe works for a little while, short time, short-term benefits, but then they fall back into their old patterns and are frustrated, can't figure out why. And my thesis on this and what I seek to prove through the book and through all the work that I do is that we focus excessively on the what, especially in the health and wellness industry. We focus on this is what you need to eat. This is the kind of exercise regimen that you need to do.

[00:24:13] This is how to practice good sleep hygiene. These are the things. This is the what. All these are the tactics, the strategies. These are the things that you need to do. We very rarely focus on the who. So because we have so much information, we are inundated with information on how, what we need to do in order to become the best version of ourselves or improve our well-being, all of those pieces. But you can have the best tactic in the world.

[00:24:40] But if you don't believe that you are actually capable of executing on that, if you have a belief that I've tried everything and nothing works for me or I always quit or I always give up. Everyone in my family has been unwell, so therefore that's my destiny too. Whatever it is that is your disempowering identity story that you have, that's going to block you from actually taking action on the things that the world is telling us we need to do. So that's what I focus on in the book. Interesting.

[00:25:10] One of the things you talked about the trappings, it was interesting that you were chatting about that. There are a lot of people I see today, especially perhaps with the onset of neurodiversity. And this again might be a massive oversimplification in Germanization, so forgive me if it is. But maybe it's younger people. They seem to identify themselves as being unwell. So I was interested when you talked about the whole thing.

[00:25:34] There's almost a, I've worked in organizations where there's almost like a competition to see who has the most letters after the name. And I'd say that with real fondness, but also who is the most unwell? Who is, who actually has the most chronic problems? And I wonder if, probably from a Brazilian's point of view, I've got my own views on that, but is that something you experience? Is that something really that needs to be thought about?

[00:26:00] Because I just wonder whether we have a generational approach to not seeing ourselves as being aspirational anymore, but the aspiration or the endodentity is somehow limiting. And it's much more prevalent than I thought at first when I started looking at this. Yeah, I agree with you. And it is a problem. And I saw a lot of that when I was working as a family doctor. A lot of it.

[00:26:23] Because it can be a diagnosis or a specific label. Even a negative one can be, can give people a feeling of safety and comfort and knowing who they are in the world. And so there are a lot of reasons why people will hang on to labels and identities that are disempowering. Absolutely. And it can be a significant trap.

[00:26:50] And it's such a delicate and it's a fine line between, yeah, absolutely, we need awareness. And we need to de-stigmatize a variety of things that were very stigmatized, heavily stigmatized in the past. But we can overcorrect on that. And it can be a significant problem.

[00:27:08] Because if that becomes part of your, if that becomes your core identity, then that's absolutely sooner or later going to limit you in terms of what you believe is possible for you. Again, awareness is so key with that. So key with that. Let's finish on a positive note. Is there anybody who you've worked with, who you've been particularly proud of, who's always been particularly quirky, done something unusual or such? Their story might be in the book or not, as that's entirely up to you.

[00:27:37] Any sort of thoughts on that one? Yeah, I have so many people that I've worked with who have made really quantum shifts in their life. And especially what I love is people later on in life realizing that they are not as limited as they thought that they were. And let me think. There's one woman that I work with, and she is a critical care nurse. So she, and she practiced for decades.

[00:28:03] And she's now past the age where everyone feels that she should retire. And she left nursing a long time ago. But what she really wanted to do was build a business as a coach, as a teachee, like teaching her what she, her body of work and helping, continuing to help people, but in a way more creative way, which involves being online and working with people all over the world.

[00:28:31] And that was just because it's so different from her career. And of course, this resonated with me because this was my story too. And so in her 70s, deciding that she can absolutely not going to be limited by stories of I'm not good at tech. That's another identity statement that people have, especially I'm not good at tech. And nobody's good at tech when no baby knows how to use tech when they're born. So of course, people who consider themselves good at tech have learned it, which means you could learn it too.

[00:29:00] You don't need to be an expert to be able to use it to improve your life and to improve the lives of others and work in this global way and take advantage of all the tools. So now she's teaching and coaching people online all over the place and has created this completely new chapter for herself at a life stage when everyone else in her life would be much more comfortable if she would just pick up knitting and do the usual, do what's expected.

[00:29:28] So she's just, she loves surprising people now. And so I love that for her. Very nice. So the book is called Redesigning You in a Story, Transform Your Health, which is great. I see it's on Kindle UK. I'm sorry, not Kindle. Amazon UK as well. Just have a quick look. It's a weird chat. But if people want to maybe have a look at your website, look at more details of the work you do and some of the other programs you run, how would they do that, Kim? The best place really is just to find me on my website, which is drkimfoster.com.

[00:29:56] And from there you can find my YouTube channel, which is Kim Foster MD, Instagram, those kinds of places. But really my hub is my website, drkimfoster.com. Doctors D-R rather than? D-R. Yes, not spelled out. That's it. Look, thank you so much for spending time with us today. And thank you for coming to London and having time with him in the home country. And I wish you well for the rest of the summer holidays and good luck with the book. I think it sounds absolutely fascinating.

[00:30:25] I shall be buying myself a copy very soon. I think it's really fascinating what you've been talking about today. So thanks for spending time with us. Thank you so much, Russell. This has been a great conversation. Oh, good. You take care. Hi, I hope you found that episode useful and entertaining. If you want to support our work, please go to resilienceunravel.com. And you can become a member there as well. You can also send us a question there and even apply to do a podcast.

[00:30:54] You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts or any of the other podcast hosts of your choice, as well as getting hold of some useful resources about resilience and a whole lot more. Join us next time on the next edition of Resilience Unraveled. I hope you're going to see you next time. And we'll see you next time.