Dr Laura Copley – The impact of trauma on relationships

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[00:01:12] Hey and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled. And sitting in front of me resplendent in a sort of American haze of glory is Dr. Laura Copley. Hi, Dr. Laura. How the devil are you?

[00:01:27] I am fantastic. Thank you for having me on today. I'm really excited to be on your show.

[00:01:32] Yeah, me too. And thank you so much for joining us. Why don't you give us a bit of a pen portrait of who you are?

[00:01:37] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So my expertise is on relationships, complex trauma and how that plays out in our adult relationships and our ways that we form intimacy with others.

[00:01:52] I am a licensed professional counselor in Virginia and I own a private practice there, but I'm also an international speaker on this subject.

[00:02:02] And what I have found in working in the realm of what we call complex trauma, which is repeated, ongoing, prolonged exposure to these death by a thousand cuts kind of trauma,

[00:02:16] is that it embeds in us in how we show up in our relationships.

[00:02:22] And over time in doing some of my trauma work with clients, I started to attract couples and relationships that wanted to figure out how their past was influencing how they were treating each other.

[00:02:36] And very slowly, this interest in this area of expertise started to develop around the buzzword of the time, toxic relationships and trauma bonding.

[00:02:48] And I have formulated a more new way of approaching some of these toxic relationships and working with my clients and educating others on a different way of looking at them.

[00:03:05] Okay. Well, let's start from the beginning because you've given me quite a lot of, I was on your site that you got the word toxic love as well.

[00:03:13] So toxics everywhere and toxic positivity, no doubt will pop into the conversation.

[00:03:18] So we're all toxic up.

[00:03:23] So I'm guessing we start with the definition of a relationship in the sense that you're talking about.

[00:03:27] Are we talking about romantic relationship or familial relationship? Where are we?

[00:03:31] So the majority of the work that I do is with couples and romantic relationships.

[00:03:36] It, of course, can show up in family dynamics as well.

[00:03:40] And I'm not like I'll bring that.

[00:03:42] I work with families as well in my private practice.

[00:03:45] But the majority of this work is on intimacy, romance, and finding somebody else out there in this world that you're connected to and you want to make this relationship work.

[00:03:57] But there's just something going on that's repelling you and causing these fights and arguments and bringing out the worst in ourselves.

[00:04:05] And I like working with that kind of stuff.

[00:04:08] That sounds good to me as well.

[00:04:10] Very much more teeth into that.

[00:04:12] So are you saying, or you might be saying both these things, are you saying that the basis of a toxic relationship is this sort of trauma response, which has been learned before the relationship?

[00:04:21] Or is this something that embeds or is part of the relationship?

[00:04:26] How does that begin to manifest itself?

[00:04:28] So it begins to manifest.

[00:04:30] And this is my work.

[00:04:31] This is why my approach is a little bit different than I think what you'll read in a lot of the pop psychology section at your local bookstore is I go back to your roots.

[00:04:44] I go back to when was those first experiences that you were abandoned or betrayed or humiliated, or there was injustice in your origin story, rejection, humiliation.

[00:04:59] And over time, we learned to protect ourselves and defend ourselves and cope with those things in certain ways that then show up in our current adult relationships.

[00:05:12] So these controlling behaviors might come from the fact that you were raised in an environment where there was just sheer chaos.

[00:05:20] And the only thing that you could do is control yourselves and control your immediate environment.

[00:05:25] And now you learned that it's your responsibility to handle everything.

[00:05:30] And that shows up with like, now I got to handle my partner.

[00:05:33] I got to put her in her place, or I got to make sure that I'm micromanaging him because if not, everything falls apart.

[00:05:39] And there's so many books out there now that will call those controlling behaviors and stigmatize them as an abuser-victim dynamic.

[00:05:51] And that happens.

[00:05:52] I'm not saying that that doesn't happen.

[00:05:53] That 100% happens.

[00:05:56] And I want to open up the conversation and the dialogue that maybe we can help those people through trauma-informed work and going back to their roots.

[00:06:06] But you're describing attachment theory in a sense, aren't you?

[00:06:10] Yeah.

[00:06:11] Okay, that's good.

[00:06:11] As long as we're both on the same page.

[00:06:13] Yes.

[00:06:13] I'm describing attachment theory through a trauma-informed lens and then how that shows up in these trauma reenactments in our adult relationships.

[00:06:23] Yeah.

[00:06:23] And so do you think we're minded to draw ourselves to people who replicate that slightly perverse relationship we had originally?

[00:06:32] Or do we attempt to sort of heal ourselves by having someone who's, you know, like an opposite or the same?

[00:06:39] Sure.

[00:06:40] What's the sort of, where's the jury sit on that one?

[00:06:44] Absolutely.

[00:06:44] I think both.

[00:06:45] The secret sauce to that is how much are you aware of what happened to you?

[00:06:53] So the more unaware you are, the more you're going to replicate and repeat the same sort of pattern.

[00:06:59] You're going to attract the role that you know.

[00:07:02] But if you're really aware of what happened, and this is how mom treated me, I'm never going to do that to my husband or my spouse.

[00:07:10] Then we pendulum swing the other way and we repel any form of that dynamic.

[00:07:18] But that's also a trauma response because we're not actually healing, we're avoiding.

[00:07:23] So whether it's replication or avoidance, we're on this trauma pendulum swing as opposed to working on trusting yourself again,

[00:07:33] and healing and going through this place of learning actually how to repair as opposed to being afraid and reactive in relationships.

[00:07:42] That's great.

[00:07:43] That makes sense.

[00:07:44] But can you unpack, it might be useful for you to unpack the word trauma in the way that you're using it?

[00:07:49] Because there are, you know, it's one of those words that sort of itself suffers from trauma by being abused itself.

[00:07:56] So how are you describing it?

[00:07:58] What do you mean by trauma?

[00:07:59] So trauma can take so many different forms.

[00:08:05] They can have this immediate crisis emergency experience.

[00:08:11] And then there's these sorts of trauma that are more subtle and the death by a thousand cuts.

[00:08:19] And I can work with both.

[00:08:22] But in this context, we're working with these prolonged micro exposures to mistreatment.

[00:08:30] Being neglected, being dismissed, being made fun of, being cast aside, favoritism in the family, being the scapegoat, having to be the hero of your family.

[00:08:41] Like that might sound like, oh, you were so important in your family.

[00:08:44] Well, to an eight-year-old kid who has to shine for her parents and be absolutely everything to redeem them of their shortcomings, that's a lot of pressure.

[00:08:53] So the trauma that I'm talking about isn't necessarily these super aggressive, obvious kinds of trauma.

[00:09:04] Those absolutely this.

[00:09:05] But we're talking about those death by a thousand cuts kind of things that you don't know you're going through it until you actually do the work.

[00:09:14] And you're like, oh, my gosh.

[00:09:16] That was really painful.

[00:09:17] And it completely changed who I am as a person.

[00:09:21] So do you think that – because obviously lots of people go through these events.

[00:09:24] Some people are deeply affected by them.

[00:09:26] And some people have the resilience to be able to – whether it be an inherent or learn – to understand, deal with those things.

[00:09:34] So how important do you see resilience as being part of the process?

[00:09:40] Not necessarily by the time they reach the couple stage because it's sort of too late by then.

[00:09:44] But actually in sort of the way that we parent and the way that we bring our kids up to be resilient.

[00:09:50] Where's your thinking on that?

[00:09:52] There is at some point in that child's life where they were seen enough, like emotionally seen, psychologically seen, not just physically seen.

[00:10:03] But they were seen enough to be able to determine that their internal world, meaning what they were perceiving, how they were feeling, matched what was going on externally.

[00:10:14] So in children we see this resiliency as this sense of like, no, I'm right.

[00:10:21] Yeah, this sense of what I'm perceiving is real.

[00:10:25] And with that, they're able to have this perspective around what is happening and they know one day I can be out of it.

[00:10:36] Yeah.

[00:10:37] And so resiliency plays a big role in whether or not self-trust stays intact after a traumatizing event versus where that traumatizing event or those death by a thousand cuts,

[00:10:49] whether that disrupts a child's ability to trust themselves and believe in themselves and trust their perspective of what's happening.

[00:10:59] Sure.

[00:10:59] So given that this is a parental, it originates potentially parentally.

[00:11:04] So much.

[00:11:06] Majority.

[00:11:07] Majority originates, yeah.

[00:11:08] So how bad as parents have the last two or three generations been?

[00:11:12] Because actually this mental health issues have got and trauma issues have got worse and worse and worse.

[00:11:16] Because we've been throwing therapy, counseling, all sorts of these things, and they're getting worse and worse and worse.

[00:11:21] So there's a problem with therapy and counseling or there's a problem with parenting.

[00:11:25] So where are we going wrong in the sort of big picture?

[00:11:29] Yeah.

[00:11:30] And I think the answer has to do with intergenerational patterns.

[00:11:34] I don't want to come from the perspective that every parent is bad.

[00:11:39] That parent at one time was also a child that wasn't getting what he or she needed.

[00:11:43] There is a long legacy line of intergenerational patterns or trauma or mistreatment or gender roles or values that get inherited and passed down that just isn't working anymore.

[00:11:58] And something that's happening with sort of this generation, millennials, Gen Zs, like this sort of hub of up and coming generation is we're talking about it more.

[00:12:10] And the awareness of what is broken in our legacy line and our family line is becoming so much more obvious.

[00:12:19] And the more obvious it is, the more we're starting to see it play out.

[00:12:25] We're still seeing the problem in young children, aren't we?

[00:12:28] We're still seeing the problem with people who are 13, 14, 18, 19.

[00:12:31] These are people who've been through the talking therapies, they've been through these processes, but somehow it's not fixing.

[00:12:37] So I'm just wondering, again, big picture.

[00:12:39] I'm not talking about you and your practice here.

[00:12:41] Absolutely.

[00:12:41] What's missing?

[00:12:43] What's going on here?

[00:12:45] Because we talk about talking all the time, but it doesn't seem as if talking is solving things.

[00:12:49] The talking, especially for children, a therapist can do as much play therapy as they want, but then they're sending their kid back into a family system where the system isn't doing the work.

[00:13:00] Yeah.

[00:13:00] So what we're missing and what is very, very difficult is the scapegoat child, which is the child that's often pushed into therapy as being the bad one, quote unquote bad one.

[00:13:13] All the problems are being put on them as opposed to looking at the conceptual picture, the bigger picture of what's going on.

[00:13:20] So I think what's missing isn't like maybe there are not great therapists out there.

[00:13:25] They're not great parents that are out there.

[00:13:27] But I think what is missing is the entire family system coming together and owning the wound that they're carrying.

[00:13:35] And every single person has a role in that.

[00:13:39] Similarly, as that manifests like in our adult relationships, most of the time, not all the time, but most of the time, two people have a role in why a toxic dynamic is being created.

[00:13:52] Yeah.

[00:13:53] Yeah.

[00:13:53] It's a very fair point you make because actually if you look at animal therapy, you look at dogs with poor behaviours and animals with poor behaviours, and it's always the family system sitting behind it.

[00:14:02] If there's even animals can pick up a culture of abuse or something that's going on, can't they?

[00:14:07] And such like, and that's quite interesting.

[00:14:09] Also things like, you know, you'll see badly behaved animals who just don't have boundaries or, you know, that sort of the things that children need.

[00:14:17] But I do think we're missing a trick in parenting, don't we?

[00:14:20] We really have a deficit of parenting skills.

[00:14:23] Not for everybody, as you say, because there's tons of people who are getting it right.

[00:14:25] Yeah.

[00:14:26] We're not stamping this bad parenting on every parent's forehead, you know.

[00:14:32] But there is the reality that the intergenerational legacy of things that are inherited needs to be identified.

[00:14:43] And parents need to take accountability in their role in passing that on to their children.

[00:14:49] And as grownups, unfortunately, we have a really hard time saying I am wrong to kids.

[00:14:58] Because we want to step into the role of like, well, you know, I'm right.

[00:15:03] I'm here to raise you.

[00:15:04] I'm here to mentor you.

[00:15:05] I need to be right because I'm, you know, passing the torch.

[00:15:08] But we're not.

[00:15:09] We're not always right.

[00:15:10] Sometimes our kids are right.

[00:15:11] Yeah.

[00:15:12] We're passing the torch with the burning end first sometimes.

[00:15:14] That's the problem, isn't it?

[00:15:15] That's right.

[00:15:16] No, I like that.

[00:15:17] I think if, so what you're basically saying, and maybe paraphrasing, so forgive me,

[00:15:21] if there's a parent out there thinking their child needs therapy, actually, they probably need it first or alongside perhaps.

[00:15:28] I would say majority of the time that's the case.

[00:15:31] Yeah.

[00:15:32] Yeah.

[00:15:32] I totally agree with you.

[00:15:33] So I'm trying to have a fight with someone I agree with.

[00:15:36] It's very difficult.

[00:15:37] So I know you've decided to write a book.

[00:15:41] Yes.

[00:15:42] For pulling a book together on the subject.

[00:15:45] Yes.

[00:15:46] So something that ended up happening is, you know, I give lectures all around the world on this topic.

[00:15:51] And just so happened there was a publisher in the audience that said, we need to make this a book because my approach maps out our origin story.

[00:16:02] How it's part one is our origin story.

[00:16:04] Part two is how that is showing up in our current relationships, our most intimate relationships.

[00:16:11] And then part three is on post-traumatic growth.

[00:16:14] So once we actually heal our trauma and work on how, and work on those quote unquote toxic dynamics, we're not just trying to get back to status quo.

[00:16:26] We're not just trying to be better.

[00:16:28] We want to actually make meaning of what we've been through and become better human beings because of what we've been through.

[00:16:36] So post-traumatic growth is, it's tied to resiliency.

[00:16:39] It's a little bit different, but it's tied to resiliency in that fact that I learned something deep within myself.

[00:16:46] And now it's ingrained.

[00:16:48] I trust myself in a new way.

[00:16:50] And I have these gifts now that make me more able to navigate this very crazy hard world sometimes.

[00:16:58] And we can actually see that manifest in our relationships too, with deeper communication, deeper empathy, deeper intimacy.

[00:17:06] And so that's my book.

[00:17:07] It's called Loving You Is Hurting Me.

[00:17:09] Yeah, great title.

[00:17:10] So who did you write it for?

[00:17:11] Is it written for parents or for kids?

[00:17:14] Or who's the avatar behind it?

[00:17:17] The people that will enjoy it the most are going to be adults that are in really hard romantic relationships and wondering why they keep replicating the same pattern over and over again.

[00:17:31] Will they be aware of this pattern though, Laura?

[00:17:35] The book is there to help map out what the pattern actually is.

[00:17:39] But they're going to be aware that something is wrong.

[00:17:41] They're going to be aware it's hurting.

[00:17:44] The relationship is hurting.

[00:17:45] And I don't know what to do.

[00:17:47] So this person is written for somebody who wants to understand what's going on, gather tools, do exercises.

[00:17:55] It has tons of exercises and journaling prompts and activities to help actually identify the pattern so that they finally have language to it and then build some skills around, well, then what do I need to do in my current relationship or my next relationship if you're single?

[00:18:15] That where I can represent a better version of myself.

[00:18:19] Because I'm guessing part of this, if it's written for one of the partners, in a sense, if you're in a relationship, both people need to read it.

[00:18:25] Otherwise, you have one person changing and the other person staying the same.

[00:18:30] And this sort of inevitable conclusion is that that's where the relationship can end, I suppose.

[00:18:34] So, and again, sometimes the best thing for a relationship, which is toxic, excuse the thing that we're not meant to say, is a relationship to them, shouldn't it?

[00:18:44] Sometimes relationships are not good for you.

[00:18:47] Sometimes.

[00:18:47] Sometimes that will be the answer because if it is just one person doing the work and the refusal of another person to do the work, the one that is doing the work will first encounter a type of agitation or the feeling of defeat, the feeling of feeling hopeless.

[00:19:05] But if they keep doing it, what they will eventually do is they're going to resurface and they're going to learn skills.

[00:19:12] They're going to trust themselves more.

[00:19:13] They're going to find that they like themselves better.

[00:19:15] And then they're going to outgrow their partner.

[00:19:18] Yeah.

[00:19:19] That's when they leave.

[00:19:21] Other times.

[00:19:22] Are they going to understand the patterns that came from childhood and then work that through?

[00:19:25] Is it like a, is it like a, I don't need a therapy type book or is it, is it like a pre, you know, sort of starter kit before you go to therapy?

[00:19:34] I would never say this is in a place of therapy as a therapist.

[00:19:38] Of course you wouldn't.

[00:19:39] Yeah.

[00:19:39] Everybody has their own story and needs to be seen in a different way.

[00:19:45] This is a good starter.

[00:19:48] Or if you are in therapy, something that could be a good compliment to your work or help supplement the work.

[00:19:55] Help you bring more language to your therapist.

[00:19:58] Say like, Hey, I read this book and I'm learning about my inner child wounds and reparenting that inner child.

[00:20:05] And I would like to talk about how that personally is impacting my life.

[00:20:10] I can't go personal, unfortunately, with a book that is, you know, it's written as personal as I can, but everybody has their own journey that they need to take.

[00:20:21] Yes.

[00:20:22] So you said it had journals, it had workbooks, it has bits, but it sounds a practical sort of effect.

[00:20:27] Every chapter, every chapter is full of activities, exercises to bring deeper awareness, checklists, different things that they can do to help make the work as personal as they can, as far as the book goes.

[00:20:44] But I would absolutely recommend taking what you're learning and to a therapist and making it even more personal to your story.

[00:20:50] Yeah, absolutely fascinating.

[00:20:52] Well, okay.

[00:20:54] Remind us of the title and tell us where we can get hold of it.

[00:20:56] Sure.

[00:20:57] It's called Loving You is Hurting Me.

[00:21:00] And it's by me, Laura Copley.

[00:21:02] And right now in the, I don't know, do you guys have Barnes and Noble over there?

[00:21:07] Barnes and Noble and that sort of thing?

[00:21:08] No, we don't, but we do have Amazon.

[00:21:10] But it is on Amazon.

[00:21:12] So if you want in America, you can walk into, you know, Target and Books A Million.

[00:21:20] But in different places, you can go on Amazon and it's available there.

[00:21:27] No, that's absolutely great.

[00:21:28] So if people want to find out more about you, where should we look?

[00:21:32] Yes.

[00:21:32] So I am active mostly on Instagram at Doc Copley, D-O-C-C-O-P-L-E-Y.

[00:21:40] And I am recently getting involved in TikTok.

[00:21:42] So I'm at the same handle, Doc Copley.

[00:21:45] And you can also go to my website, lauracopley.com.

[00:21:49] Brilliant.

[00:21:49] I mean, there you are.

[00:21:50] That's it.

[00:21:51] There it is.

[00:21:52] Done.

[00:21:53] Fantastic.

[00:21:53] I love it.

[00:21:54] Well, thank you for spending time with us today.

[00:21:56] It's been absolutely enlightening.

[00:21:57] And I think every sort of everybody needs it because most people, even people who are in

[00:22:02] relatively successful relationships can always get things better, can't they?

[00:22:06] And actually, this is the growth that comes when you spend a long time with people.

[00:22:10] Otherwise, you can fall into those old habits because all habits exist sometimes without anybody

[00:22:16] noticing them to start with, can't they?

[00:22:19] Sure.

[00:22:19] Or even healthy relationships will benefit with deeper insight.

[00:22:23] But then especially that post-traumatic growth stage, even if you're like, I'm great.

[00:22:28] Well, wait till you taste this realm of post-traumatic growth because that's where we could go next.

[00:22:35] I love that.

[00:22:36] Taste the realm of post-traumatic growth.

[00:22:39] That should be on the book cover.

[00:22:40] That is the quote.

[00:22:42] All right.

[00:22:42] I'll jot it down.

[00:22:44] That'll be my next book title.

[00:22:45] You said it.

[00:22:46] Look, thanks very, very much for spending time with us today.

[00:22:49] I really appreciate it.

[00:22:50] Thank you so much.

[00:22:51] You take care.

[00:22:55] Hi, thanks for listening.

[00:22:56] Hopefully that was a useful and interesting episode.

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[00:23:42] Thanks.

[00:23:42] Thanks.