Marsha Jacobson - The wrong calamity

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[00:01:12] Hello and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled and with me today I'm delighted to welcome

[00:01:18] Marsha Jacobson and we just had a quick chat and I'm detecting from the accent, Marsha,

[00:01:23] you're from way over the west.

[00:01:27] Way over the west, yeah. I'm on the east coast of the west.

[00:01:33] Really whereabouts in the world?

[00:01:34] I'm in Manhattan, New York.

[00:01:36] Oh really? Oh my goodness, my favourite city. Fantastic.

[00:01:40] Mine too.

[00:01:41] You didn't mention that. I'm coming there next year on holiday. I'll pop in.

[00:01:47] I won't, don't worry. So how's life treating you over there at the moment? It's sort of

[00:01:53] the beginning of spring at the moment and it's sorrowful and wet and nasty. Tell me

[00:01:57] it's better over there.

[00:01:58] It's gorgeous.

[00:01:59] Is it really?

[00:02:01] I just came in from taking the most wonderful walk and didn't need a jacket.

[00:02:07] See, living the life.

[00:02:09] Living the life.

[00:02:10] Well look, thanks so much for joining me today. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

[00:02:15] Why don't you just tell us a little about yourself and what it is maybe that you get up to?

[00:02:22] Sure. Well, what I'm up to right now is I've written a memoir and I have retired from my

[00:02:32] teaching and put my consulting practice on hold and I teach management and I am at the moment

[00:02:40] engaged in all things that have to do with the book. The book is very much a part of my

[00:02:53] backstory. I mean, it's a memoir but it also has as a substantial theme the whole

[00:03:03] whole notion of resilience both in my private life and in my business life. So I can just

[00:03:13] say very quickly, I was raised by parents who taught me I was worthless. I did a lot of

[00:03:21] things that undermined myself and when I went to college, I think it was probably preordained

[00:03:30] that I fell under the spell of a guy who knew a pushover when he saw one. I thought he saw

[00:03:38] things in me that no one else had seen. I think what he saw in me was things that no one else

[00:03:44] had looked for and that had to do with vulnerabilities. I even agreed to move to Japan

[00:03:49] with him. Lived there five years, spoke the language fluently and unexpectedly, almost by

[00:03:57] accident, got quite a job at Mattel Toys Southeast Asia and succeeded. As I became more successful,

[00:04:07] he became more abusive and when we got back to the States, I actually escaped from him

[00:04:14] with our two young daughters. They were two and four at the time chased by police,

[00:04:20] literally in a cop chase. He stalked me for many years. This all was happening while I was managing

[00:04:30] my career. I got a Harvard MBA as a single parent when my kids were three and five

[00:04:38] and then I was a manager at Teradyne, a vice president at Shawmut Corporation which was

[00:04:46] later absorbed by Bank of America, vice president of operations at Fidelity.

[00:04:52] I switched to non-profits. I taught until very recently non-profit management at the graduate

[00:04:59] level and I started my consulting company. For the last almost 20 years, I've been consulting

[00:05:13] on, at this point, exclusively non-profit management. While that part was going on

[00:05:23] indirectly through getting my MBA, I met my second husband. By the time that happened,

[00:05:31] I did have my self-confidence. I had found my footing and we had a very glorious

[00:05:40] marriage for many years until something terrible in his past came to get us. He had serious PTSD

[00:05:52] that our marriage could not withstand. This was also, this was in the later stages of my career

[00:06:03] when I had very senior executive positions and for a variety of reasons. Also, you have to

[00:06:14] strategically manage your vulnerability in the workplace as well, your professional and personal

[00:06:21] vulnerability. I kept that private throughout my career. That's my story.

[00:06:27] Okay. Wow. Normally people give me two or three things to go. I've just looked at

[00:06:31] my pad and I have, as I'm showing you now, 18 things to go at. Let's unpack a couple of

[00:06:36] these things. Sure. Look, the first thing that springs to mind is you're obviously a person of

[00:06:42] massive resilience because you've survived quite a few amazing things and bounced forward and

[00:06:48] bounced back in various different places. I'm guessing you might be similar to many women

[00:06:54] who have this sort of abusive relationship and juggle this private, I was going to say demon,

[00:07:04] maybe there's the right word, but this private complexity with the outfit face of a career.

[00:07:11] Often I'm guessing when you were going through your career, you and I probably same sort of

[00:07:15] age, that's a tough world for women as well, especially women in senior executive positions.

[00:07:21] How did you manage that need for strength in both areas of your life?

[00:07:28] Well, I will say that along the way, it took me a long time to just overcome the gospel that

[00:07:41] I had been brought up with, which is that I wasn't a person who could handle things.

[00:07:47] I wasn't someone who could be choosy. It took me a long, long time and along the way,

[00:07:57] I sort of developed some, I don't know, I call them little nuggets, I mean almost tricks to

[00:08:03] myself of ways to do it. One thing that was not a trick and not a nugget, but I would say

[00:08:14] is very important in my personal life and even in my career where each job I had was something

[00:08:21] I hadn't done before, which is not atypical because we get promotions and whatnot.

[00:08:32] I started thinking of that terrible shattered aftermath of my divorce,

[00:08:39] not as where I was going to be stuck and my new normal, but as a transition. We all go through

[00:08:47] so many transitions. I talked to myself about transitions I'd made before. In my personal life,

[00:08:54] it was new schools, childless to parenthood, midwesterner to East Coaster to living in Japan,

[00:09:03] and that made me less afraid of the future and more aware of my steps forward and more

[00:09:09] philosophical about the inevitable steps backward. Another thing that I realized, not at the time,

[00:09:18] but in retrospect is that along the way, each time I took a step back, I was always

[00:09:33] that took a little courage. I was starting from a higher foundation because I had done a string of

[00:09:42] them and two of the things that I really relied on, these are my nuggets. One of them was doing

[00:09:53] things that I called tiny experiments. Another was something that I called my headline.

[00:10:03] I was writing fake headlines as a way of checking in on myself.

[00:10:10] We can talk more about that or I know you have 17 more questions.

[00:10:15] Tell us a bit about those two things because they're quite interesting. Go for it.

[00:10:20] The tiny experiments, in my private life, in my personal life, if I was feeling isolated

[00:10:32] and that definitely comes with trauma. I was so traumatized by my second divorce.

[00:10:43] I will say also suffering vicarious trauma because what had happened to my

[00:10:48] second husband, I now knew all those stories and I was suffering his trauma as well as mine

[00:10:54] because I loved him. If I was keeping myself isolated, I would force myself to arrange to

[00:11:03] have coffee or see a movie or something with a friend. If I felt dumpy or unlovable,

[00:11:12] I would put on clothes that I used to feel good in and wash my face.

[00:11:17] I talked to myself. I looked in the mirror and said, well, that's better.

[00:11:21] No, some of these experiments worked. Some of them didn't. If one of them worked,

[00:11:31] I celebrated the win. If one didn't, it actually was a win because I learned from it.

[00:11:39] Instead of allowing myself to continue with a story that said every time I do something bad,

[00:11:46] that's the real thing and every time it's something good, that's a fluke.

[00:11:51] I created a new narrative about myself that I truly came to believe which is, well,

[00:11:57] that's what experiments are for and now you're not ready for this one yet and we'll try it

[00:12:02] again in a little while. That was my tiny experiments. The fake approach to headlines,

[00:12:13] I don't know where this came from seriously, but at night before I went to bed, I would think back

[00:12:19] on my day, my personal day and then later also my work day. I would write these sometimes very

[00:12:30] funny headlines, old fashioned newspaper headlines like, woman goes to movie with friend

[00:12:38] and survives. Kid acts up, mom doesn't burst into tears. Exec speaks truth to power about

[00:12:49] hiring freeze, granted three more slots. If the headlines trended positive, again, I would

[00:13:00] celebrate them and if they started trending negative, I had this very goofy image. I don't

[00:13:10] know where it came from. It was when I felt I was one down, I would describe myself as being

[00:13:16] in the swamp and I think it came from a sign I saw in the middle of the swamp when I

[00:13:23] was in the Okefenokee swamps with my girls and I would just say, yep, you're in the swamp

[00:13:29] again, you've been here before, you'll get out again, you know how to get out of swamps

[00:13:33] and that's what worked. So it's really fascinating. So a couple of things to pick up on if I may.

[00:13:40] One of the things you said is I think very illuminating which is you talked about the

[00:13:47] inevitable stunt backwards and I think that's quite interesting isn't it because I think a lot

[00:13:52] of people have almost a toxic positivity that everything goes forward in life in this series

[00:13:59] of positive affirmations and I think you're absolutely right. I forget, you used to talk

[00:14:04] about this as much as things fail in the study learning and I think what you're doing is

[00:14:08] bringing learning into the heart of our journey as human beings and what you've shown is

[00:14:15] we start with one narrative and you build your own narrative and you learn your own

[00:14:19] examples don't you? And I love the idea of the experiments and particularly the headlines

[00:14:24] because you are literally narrative building and you're projecting that into the future

[00:14:28] and saying this is where I'm going to be and if I don't get there it's not because I'm a

[00:14:33] terrible human being, it's because I've got something to learn on the way. Maybe the headline

[00:14:36] was too ambitious or whatever it might be because there's no such thing as failure

[00:14:41] only feedback is at the heart of what you're saying in your journey. Now and forgive me,

[00:14:47] I'm maybe rambling on here but I wonder if you get that from sort of professional

[00:14:52] development working as an executive in organizations because often that sort of training

[00:14:57] comes into the sort of way that people are developed as leaders and I just wonder if

[00:15:01] that those thoughts came from there or they came from a different place? To be perfectly honest

[00:15:12] I'm not sure where it came from but I have a theory that is very prominent in my

[00:15:20] in the wrong calamity, my memoir. I think that we are all born with a certain amount of resilience

[00:15:29] in us but that it really needs to be nurtured and unfortunately I was born to parents who

[00:15:38] didn't see that as their role but I had two grandmothers who saw what was happening to me

[00:15:46] and they stepped in and basically nourished my you know this resilience that really need to be

[00:15:57] fed and watered you know before it could grow and they weren't the only two and

[00:16:04] to me that was everything and it makes all the difference of people who end up on

[00:16:10] floor footing and who end up not. It's a very interesting question you ask about whether I got

[00:16:18] it from leadership training. I think it was actually the other way around. I brought it

[00:16:23] to leadership training you know when I was I was breaking glass circles before you know glass

[00:16:33] ceilings before we had that phrase and not getting much mentorship or training but I

[00:16:42] explicitly used part of that to coach my own staff and help buoy them and help them grow

[00:16:51] and I think there's something about trying to bring along other people that you bring along

[00:16:56] yourself as well and I don't know that that may not be an answer that makes sense. I think

[00:17:01] it's the best I can do. No it's a good answer because actually what you say reinforces what

[00:17:06] a lot of people say which is in order to be able to lead anybody else you've got to stop

[00:17:10] the process of leading yourself. Now the other thing that just struck me is that a lot of

[00:17:14] people describe your story of being brought up and had a lot of negativity poorly parented

[00:17:20] whatever it might be and people think that they succeed despite that but there's also

[00:17:25] a theory in psychology that people succeed because of it because that because sometimes

[00:17:31] that ignites a sort of an energy which is I'll show you or I'm going to do this for me.

[00:17:40] So it creates a different sort of narrative doesn't it and it's interesting that you've

[00:17:45] found a man that was continuing to fire up that negative sort of perspective.

[00:17:52] So I always wonder and there's no research to back this up at all I'm just sort of playing with

[00:17:57] the concept. There's a sort of happy clappy sort of Betty Crocker sort of notion of childhood

[00:18:03] which gets you these amazingly well adjusted people very often they're not well adjusted

[00:18:09] and you have these people who are really poorly parented and they often are the people

[00:18:13] that have the most resilience and often are the people who have fantastic stories. If you

[00:18:19] look at the majority of some of the biggest entrepreneurs they were poorly parented so it's

[00:18:24] quite interesting whether and it comes down to your strength of character I'm guessing we're not

[00:18:30] going to talk much about character but I wonder if there was something in your character somewhere

[00:18:35] that fired you up and made you independent and maybe it was those grandparents or maybe

[00:18:40] you were able to sort of you know pull something from the ether or you were independent

[00:18:45] and minded enough who knows but it is interesting that in order to be resilient you have to you have

[00:18:50] I don't use the word suffer in that sense of emotional suffering but sometimes a really

[00:18:55] resilient you have to have the knockbacks to learn the resilience in the first place

[00:18:59] so I just wonder what you think about that. I love that question and I think I'm going

[00:19:06] to be thinking about it for weeks to come now that you've phrased it that way. What

[00:19:11] what I can say at this point about myself is I never in myself had that I'm going to show them

[00:19:21] or I'm gonna that was that was never anything that happened to me for me it was somehow a

[00:19:29] matter of always showing up for myself and sometimes as naively as not seeing another

[00:19:43] alternative you know so I don't I don't think that I can say that that that is is what moved me on

[00:19:55] in retrospect although I certainly never you know thought of the term

[00:20:03] you know small experiments I think there were times when I was just pushed more because I

[00:20:11] I simply felt I had to you know to take a little risk like to like the first time I said no to that

[00:20:17] abusive husband you know and the trees stayed rooted in the ground you know and it's only

[00:20:24] in retrospect that I realize and of course writing the book helped me get my story straight

[00:20:30] you know by just putting it all down along the way there were these points where I took

[00:20:35] little risks and they worked and gradually like I said each one was starting from a

[00:20:42] you know a foothold of more confidence and more ability to to sort of regroup if they didn't go

[00:20:51] well. So before we just jump into the memoir just one last question if I may I just wonder

[00:20:56] what effect the Japanese scenario had I mean it's remarkable if you were speaking fluent

[00:21:02] Japanese in five years that's an incredible achievement in a sense but I'm guessing I mean

[00:21:06] going there gives that breadth of perspective you know that whole different world and it opens up

[00:21:13] a different side of our brain I always think so I just wondered whether you attribute any of your

[00:21:19] resilience to that Japanese I want to call it an adventure because it sounds like an adventure

[00:21:23] but probably just hard hard worked at the time but well you've put your finger on something

[00:21:28] that a lot of people don't because a lot of people think the Harvard Business School situation was

[00:21:33] you know sort of where everything opened up for me I went to Japan as one person and I came back

[00:21:40] a different person both from being enlarged in the way that travel enlarges us and understanding

[00:21:49] that everything that I had thought was the only way to do things I mean even as simple

[00:21:53] as how to carry a baby or you know how to wrap a present I mean even basic things like that what

[00:22:00] bathing is you know that they were not only the only way to do things but in some cases

[00:22:06] everything I had learned wasn't even the best way and also that incredible accident

[00:22:16] I just this chance meeting with the CEO of Mattel Toys Southeast Asia and getting that job

[00:22:24] and discovering I had talents that opened a window into myself that I don't know what else

[00:22:32] would have done that um yes I mean we I can't speculate what else would have happened hopefully

[00:22:41] something but that was amazing did you meet him at a bus stop or at a party or something

[00:22:46] or how did you meet I'm sorry oh oh how did I meet him no not at a bus stop wouldn't that

[00:22:52] have been fun no I met him because I was a singer and I had joined a Japanese chorus

[00:22:58] and um I was taking private lessons with the choral director and I sang in a concert that

[00:23:05] he was putting together and I needed to find a really good accompanist and I found this

[00:23:10] woman living in Japan who had graduated from the conservatory at McGill a great school of music

[00:23:18] she was my accompanist uh Saul Mester the head of Mattel Toys Southeast Asia was her husband

[00:23:26] she and I had become quite good friends and I met him at a party that she and her husband

[00:23:32] through and we ended up in a corner for half an hour talking and um I was asking a bunch of

[00:23:40] questions about his work because I didn't know very much about business and nine months later

[00:23:47] he called and wanted me to come and sort of help solve kind of a big problem he had which

[00:23:53] was that his Japanese and American directors wouldn't go in the same room with each other

[00:23:59] and when I argued that I didn't know how to do anything I actually said I don't know how to

[00:24:03] do anything worth the money you're offering um he convinced me to do it and um and I succeeded

[00:24:13] and then that led to more consulting engagements from the companies that his um directors most of

[00:24:20] them headed up other companies and that's that's how it all happened I'm not a fan of look

[00:24:27] and um I would listen to that whole story and see it so that I was think that people in that

[00:24:32] job in that sort of job look and find talent all over the place and um and they're always on

[00:24:39] always looking for talent and then they just met you and your wife sorry that person's wife

[00:24:44] would probably have said something which is why you had half an hour to talk in the corner

[00:24:48] so um I always think putting the things down to look removes our agency over them and it's

[00:24:53] often the thing that we put down to look is the significant successes we don't own those successes

[00:24:58] and really celebrate them but um no and I'm fascinated about the Japanese thing because

[00:25:02] I do think travel is so amazing well look what what what why why a memoir was this just

[00:25:09] something that you've seen everybody else do or you want to get the story out there or

[00:25:13] you know what was the motivation for it I started out not wanting to write a memoir um

[00:25:19] I was writing a personal essay about something in my life and pretty soon I had a whole sheaf of them

[00:25:26] and with great uh and I ended up being accepted into a very small um workshop like a master class

[00:25:35] um led by Joyce Johnson who was a very you know considerably older than us but uh you know

[00:25:44] well well regarded much awarded um author and editor and she's the one who convinced me that

[00:25:54] these essays I had written wanted to be a memoir um I would I always say she lovingly bullied me

[00:26:02] and uh I finally said fine to keep her quiet and once I started I never looked back um a

[00:26:11] lot of people not Joyce but a lot of people told me not to bother because no publisher would want

[00:26:17] a non-celebrity memoir uh particularly from a debut author who had no following and four

[00:26:24] publishers wanted it and it came out six months ago and Publishers Weekly named it an editor's

[00:26:31] choice and uh people are contacting me through my website to tell me the profound effect it

[00:26:38] has on them I'm doing a lot of interviews uh and uh to people are asking me to explain what

[00:26:46] I learned in my own experiences to benefit other people uh people like yourself are inviting

[00:26:53] me to do that um for which I'm very grateful and unbelievably moved.

[00:27:00] So uh interesting isn't it the word memoir is also it must be quite liberating calling a

[00:27:07] memoir I always think um autobiographies sound so much more strict in a way whereas a man a memoir

[00:27:14] can be quite a creative wonder through through a life and then with lessons to draw where it

[00:27:20] comes from who did you write it for did you have someone in mind or was this more personal

[00:27:24] journey of saying this is me and if anybody wants to engage with it they can? No as I

[00:27:29] started writing and got more into it a very dramatic um something very dramatic to me

[00:27:34] happened I was doing a reading of the I was still developing the book but it was quite far

[00:27:41] along and I did a reading of an excerpt public reading and a woman came up to me afterward and

[00:27:48] said all the details were different but you were telling my story and now I believe I will

[00:27:54] be okay and at that point you know I had had some vague thought I wanted to be inspirational

[00:28:01] to people you know and um but I hadn't really thought that through of what it meant and then

[00:28:06] I realized I really had an obligation to be even more forthcoming than I had been and

[00:28:14] I hadn't been clear about how long it can take I hadn't been clear about some of the

[00:28:19] blunders I made along the way and you know I certainly didn't want people to think I was a

[00:28:24] superhero so in the end it was a population of readers who would like a good yarn because

[00:28:34] this takes place in the Amazon jungle and South Africa and Vietnam and certainly Japan um but

[00:28:41] also um who also had the lived experience and perhaps currently the lived experience

[00:28:50] of recovering from trauma and I wanted to reflect their lived experience primarily because so many

[00:28:58] people just you know six weeks after for example my second divorce were saying you should be over

[00:29:04] it by now and they need to know just disregard comments like that so and I guess there's a

[00:29:14] there's a I don't get this sense from you at all because you um it's interesting at watching

[00:29:19] you as you're a person full of life and vigor and such like but um but this is quite a dark

[00:29:24] potentially a very dark subject a very down subject a very um troubling subject so how did

[00:29:30] you how did you balance you with all this vigor and the subject of your memoir how did

[00:29:36] you manage that contrast yeah that was a that that was a real challenge in the in the

[00:29:45] writing and I will say that I I discarded two versions and then the third was the term

[00:29:59] I realized that the only way that I could write this was to stick to the straight and narrow of

[00:30:05] telling my own story there is no place in that book where I say he wanted to hurt me and

[00:30:12] so you know I don't know what was in anybody else's mind I just talk about it from my own

[00:30:17] point of view and my own point of view my own lived experience of it was an upward trajectory

[00:30:26] into discovering that it was not necessary well and discarding really what I had been taught to

[00:30:36] believe about myself and discovering my strengths and even though it took time and had setbacks

[00:30:43] it was a constant you know positive trajectory and um and I think that came through in the

[00:30:54] writing as I said because uh you know I kept doing more and more things that ultimately

[00:31:00] formed that whole picture yes and what's interesting is I mean you've got some

[00:31:04] fantastic reviews on the sites that you're on which is great thank you but but one of the

[00:31:09] ones that really caught my eye was stubbornness is a virtue or stubbornness as a virtue and I

[00:31:16] and it goes back to my original question about you know thriving from difficult beginnings

[00:31:21] and I do detect like an edge of steel in you and or at the heart of you at the root

[00:31:27] of you maybe and um you know that that seems quite interesting and I wonder if that review

[00:31:32] picks it up it's quite a nice thing to be said um it's lovely isn't it yeah um

[00:31:41] yeah I love that review there was another one who said this is a testament to a real badass

[00:31:47] I liked that one and then there was another one that from a young woman that I presume that said

[00:31:56] uh we we start out with the with the protagonist as a with with the deck stack against her or

[00:32:03] something like that and at the end you know from a position of strength we learn her wisdom this

[00:32:09] makes me look forward to getting older and I I love that one yeah that's good and what's

[00:32:15] interesting is how often the phrase you know it's a page turner it's an interesting story

[00:32:20] you know that comes out because again it's it's it sounds like it's not a you're not preaching

[00:32:26] it's that you just the lessons are learned by people who read the book I guess look I'm not

[00:32:31] preaching and I threw in a fair amount of humor along the way to when a little bit of uh you

[00:32:37] know comic relief was needed yeah so that's excellent well look you better tell us what

[00:32:42] the name is how you find it the name of your website you know all that all the stuff that we

[00:32:48] that you need to say otherwise your publisher will be really cross I think so um the name of

[00:32:54] the book is The Wrong Calamity and um I'm Marcia Jacobson so I'm the author and my website

[00:33:04] is Marcia Jacobson author.com good very good I'm just checking when you were saying that

[00:33:15] um because you Americans have this habit of spelling things in peculiar ways I'm just checking

[00:33:21] the spelling in that no it's all fine um yeah Marcia no thank you Marcia is M-A-R-S-H-A

[00:33:29] and Jacobson at the end is S-O-N so that's a good point no that's okay yeah all the links

[00:33:35] will be in the thing well look it's I mean I'm just sort of conscious of time I don't want

[00:33:38] to be sure any more time out of you it's been absolutely fascinating um thank you so much

[00:33:44] you know please rush out and buy this book it seems absolutely fascinating I've just popped

[00:33:49] it into my Kindle folder so I'm looking forward to reading out on my holiday soon

[00:33:54] and thank you for spending some time with us today Marcia it's been an absolute

[00:33:58] delight and I really do appreciate everything we said today it's been fascinating. Oh thank

[00:34:03] you so much for inviting me and enjoy your vacation. I shall you take care. You too thank

[00:34:09] you. Hi everybody I hope you found that episode useful and interesting feedback is always

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[00:34:59] then search for resilience unraveled I look forward to being in your ear next time around

[00:35:04] take care