Measuring Workplace Joy: Georgina Woodley on Energy, Culture, and the Joy-O-Meter

[00:00:03] Hi, I'm Dr Russell Thackeray and welcome to Resilience Unravelled, a podcast with new ideas, new thoughts, and new thinking about resilience. Guests with remarkable stories, products and services that can really power up your own mindset and resilience. You can also go to our site for more information, to ask questions, or to access some of our resources at www.resilienceunravelled.com. Let's get started!

[00:00:32] Hello and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled and welcome to another week in the middle of summer. In parts of the UK, the whole country is like a massive desert, except for the northeast where I am, and except where my guest is, because Georgina Woodley is in the fine country of Australia, in the middle of winter, probably feeling quite sad because of the horrible weather and lack of sunshine. There's no surfing.

[00:01:00] Nerissa Balland, I'm painting Australia's winter to be horrible, but what's it really like? First of all, hello! Hello, hello. Thank you so much, Russell. It's quite the opposite actually. Today was a beautiful sunny day. We've got blue skies. Spent the morning down at the beach, not the whole morning, but took the dog for a walk first thing this morning. So our winters are extremely mild and in fact our winters are probably about the same temperature as some of your days in summer. Nerissa Balland, I know you're just shooing off now. That is just too much. So we can't complain.

[00:01:29] Nerissa Balland, So which part of ours are you in? Nerissa Balland, I'm actually in Perth. Nerissa Balland, Oh, that's right on the left hand side, isn't it? Nerissa Balland, It's right on the left, yeah. And down quite a long way down the bottom. So very close to the bottom end of the planet really. Not quite that far, but we are a long way from where you are. Nerissa Balland, Yeah, you certainly are. I think one of the longest flights has actually just been to Perth, hasn't it? From London to Perth about 21 hours or something bizarre or 19 hours or something.

[00:01:55] Nerissa Balland, Yes, that would make sense. Yes. It's a long, is it pretty much a day trip to get anywhere in Europe or the US? Nerissa Balland, Yes. Anyway, look, we're not here to discuss travel or weather. I'm not going to talk about your glasses, which are absolutely fab, which I've already talked about.

[00:02:09] Nerissa Balland, Well, I started my career in consulting and accounting actually, and with the big four consultants moved into strategy roles and then found myself as a lot of people do in market research. It's one of those passion industries really. So I've spent many years, the last 20 years, in fact, more actually now in market research. And it's been a big passion of mine.

[00:02:30] Nerissa Balland, And at a personal level, just spent a lot of time investigating personal development and the role of energy just generally in life. And then found myself fascinated about the application of some of those principles to the business world, because I think the business world needs more joy in its world, actually. More resilience. Nerissa Balland, That's true. We're here throughout that. So you've got a background in the big four in consulting and such like research, which is all great. It makes a lot of sense.

[00:03:00] Nerissa Balland, So you mentioned energy and that's one of those contentious on the edge of woo-woo sort of phrases, but shall we dive right in? And what does it mean by energy? Nerissa Balland, Yeah, I think, I think we can all feel the energy of a space when we go into it. And that applies to organizations. You know, when you walk into an office, how it feels, what it's like, you get a sense of what it might be like to work there. You look around and you can sense that people look happy, people don't look happy.

[00:03:29] Nerissa Balland, So, but energy, I guess, generally more broadly without wanting to be too woo-woo, because I think it very, there's a lot that we can't see, but we just feel that some of those things are also very tangible too. Georgina Woodley, It's interesting you say that, isn't it? We used to talk about highly sensitive people and this ability they had who look slightly more attuned. It's actually linked to neurodiversity now these days. But it is interesting because there are people who can walk into a meeting and they know exactly who's in a bad mood.

[00:03:57] Georgina Woodley, And there are people who can walk into a building and say, I can tell what the culture is almost. And that's not everybody, but it is a thing, isn't it? And there is a sense of that social connection, which is implicit and not stated, but we all pick up on it somehow. I wonder how that works.

[00:04:17] Nerissa Balland, Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I think when we are looking at being part of an organisation, there's so many different elements to whether we enjoy being there or not, and what makes it cohesive, and also what helps us perform at our best.

[00:04:33] Nerissa Balland, And when I think about energy, really, I think about capacity, the capacity of people to perform at their best. And that's just made up of so many different aspects. And I was fascinated by your last guest's talk on belonging. And that's certainly one of the things that I look to understand in an organisation, not in a deep level, but it's certainly one of the drivers that we would look to understand as part of the work experience itself.

[00:04:59] Nerissa Balland, But there's so many factors, you've got to enjoy the work itself. There's a sense of you're growing or you're expanding, there's a sense of momentum, you can actually get things done in your work day. There's the culture, obviously, people around you. And that comes through not just leadership, but also your colleagues, but also the wider organisation. So lots and lots of different factors. But I think it's also, it's an exchange. So it's the energy that you bring into the room.

[00:05:26] So two people can walk into the same room and feel very differently about it. And that's because the underlying human state that each of them brings is different. And that's the point of fascination for me, because it affects how people rate an experience. And that happens both on the customer side and also the staff side. So we all know about the staff engagement type surveys where people have been asked about their workplace experience.

[00:05:52] And exactly the same, exactly the same workplace and exactly the same team could have very different ratings from two very different individuals, even though all of the variables are all the same, but they individually bring in a different state of being in their own self.

[00:06:07] And I think that's a real point, because it becomes an exchange. So if I walk into a meeting with you and I'm bringing my grumpy, depressed or distracted self, you're going to react to me differently to how you would if I brought my confessions and vivaciousness into the room and my creativity.

[00:06:30] So the exchange is two way. So that's where I think the dynamics are created by combination of all of these myriad of ingredients going on in an environment, some of which are controllable and others aren't. Interesting. You give me a couple of thoughts there. So the first thing is, are you actually saying that?

[00:06:54] Which makes sense to me that people's states, in a sense, are relativistic, aren't they? Because actually, I may be being bouncy and lively and enthusiastic, but to a very bouncy and lively and enthusiastic person, I seem quite miserable and flat today. And I wonder whether when we start thinking about these concepts about how we are, this works against this idea of authenticity, because the point of authenticity is just be how you are. And it shouldn't really matter because people have to accept you how you are.

[00:07:23] But you're implying that how you are actually has a potentially draining or negative effect on the culture or spirit of a medium, innovation, whatever it might be. So I just wonder, I wonder how you square that circle. I think that's a fascinating point because I 100% agree with authenticity. And I think people can feel you when you're authentic. They can sense when you're not being authentic. And there's a whole kind of dialogue about false positivity.

[00:07:51] So you don't necessarily want to walk in with the exuberant, over-the-top mask on, really. But I do think that we all have a responsibility to bring our best moods to the office or to the workplace or to any interaction that we're having with another human being. I think there's degrees of mood, obviously. But if we're... And there's also a sense that we are going to ebb and flow.

[00:08:19] Life happens and life brings its ups and downs. And some days, obviously, and there's loads of things that we experience as a human. Even within the space of a day, we can go from a high to a low in different aspects of our lives. But I think we all have a responsibility to be considerate to the people that we're interacting with. And that goes for both extremes. Because, of course, if we walk in with our over-the-top exuberance, that can be quite exhausting for someone else in that space.

[00:08:48] But likewise, I think if we're really feeling down, if we're bringing that energy or criticism or passive-aggressive behaviour into a room, it's not productive. But also, that could be part of our authentic self. And I think if it suggests there's a problem in the inner state of that person that might...

[00:09:11] And if we're talking about a workplace, I definitely think that's an opportunity for leaders to look for opportunities to support people if they're not in a good mental space. Yes. Yeah, it's interesting because I... Especially with the neurodiverse community. Can't think of the right word there. Sorry. Community is the first one I landed on. So forgive me if that's wrong. But you do get this sense of authenticity. It means it's okay to come to a meeting and be protective of one's mental health. This is the phrase that's used, isn't it?

[00:09:41] And I'm not going to join in. I'm not going to be bouncy. I'm going to be my authentic self. And the rest of you can have to deal with that. Because if you want to get the best out of me, it's all about the compromise that everybody else makes for my mental health. And I wonder whether what we're negotiating here are people's individual rights to protect their own mental health, in a way. And I think this has become almost an impossible leadership conundrum, hasn't it? And especially to protect themselves as well.

[00:10:08] And I wonder whether we've ended up in a state where we're so focused on feelings rather than facts. So focused on perception rather than behaviors that we're driving ourselves mad. Now, I'm hoping you're going to bring some sense of this debate. Because I know that you measure this soft, fluffy stuff. Because actually, I think most managers would welcome some sort of...

[00:10:33] Well, a toolkit that allows you to say, actually, this is the actual impact of doing things this way. So I'm hoping that's what you're going to tell us you've been up to. Yeah, absolutely. And it is... The measurement, I think, is so critical because it does give leaders the opportunity to see the patterns and see what's happening. But for me, the fascination is the relationships between different things. The measurement that we're talking about is actually something called Joyometer, which measures the experience that customers are having with the brand,

[00:11:02] the experience that staff are having with the brand, and the underlying human state of both of those groups of people. So because we know that when you walk into a room, you bring your own underlying state. And the customer experience is always a bounce back, usually, between a staff and a customer. It doesn't always... It can happen electronically, but it's always created by people.

[00:11:27] Any customer experience is created by people at some point, even if it's delivered electronically. So it's then about the patterns of the interplay between them. So when you understand what's going on in the workplace, but also understand the human state that's sitting under that, you can see the impact that different parts of the puzzle are having on each other.

[00:11:50] So if you can see, if you were mentoring across the organisation, let's say you have a really large organisation and you can measure different teams and drill down into those teams, you can start to see the patterns where there's reduction in... And the framework that I'm using to measure is the level of joy, which is an indication of the capacity that individuals have within the organisation and within themselves. It's a measure of experience, but it's a signal of capacity, really.

[00:12:19] But when you can look at patterns, you can start to dissect, OK, what do we need to do here? Is this something we need to address in the workplace itself? Or is this people's underlying state that's impacting? We can see the impact, though, of individuals on other individuals. And we can see where energy has been drained and where it's been enhanced across all of those different pieces. OK, so you've said such a lot there. Now, where do we go here? So you've spoken about... So I get what you're saying.

[00:12:48] You're making the assertion that workplace culture has a deterministic effect on customer transactions and customer experience. OK. I think that's pretty well understood. And it actually goes against the concept of authenticity, isn't it? Because actually, if you come into work feeling moody, you're not expecting to be moody when you're behaving with customers. You know, this is... Maybe this is just my own thing. I need to do a podcast about authenticity one day and put this to bed in my own head. So forgive me for that.

[00:13:15] Now, the second thing is you've talked about having this measurement indicator. And you said the word joyometer or joyometer or whatever it was. But let me pick up the words. Because actually, you've used a set of descriptors to say it's measuring this and this. But the headline word is joy. And I just wonder how you relighted on... Of all the words you could have relighted on, like performance and grit and all the sort of businessy words, you've come to spiritual joyness.

[00:13:43] Which worries me, especially as a marketing person, because isn't half of your audience away? That's such an interesting question. It's like me. Yes. No, it's interesting that you say you're a cynic because you talk about fluffy concepts in a way. And this is probably the one objection that I'm expecting is the concept that this is a fluffy concept. And I would just argue unequivocally that it is just... It's not. Joy is not a soft concept.

[00:14:12] In fact, it's a strategic advantage. And the reason why that is because when... If you think about it, when you're in a state of joy and we can all connect to how we've... When we felt like that. And joy can come from many different sources. You might get joy from being with your family. You might get joy from being at a social gathering. You might get joy from a work achievement. But absolutely, when you feel a sense of joy, there's a sense of creativity. There's a sense of expansion.

[00:14:41] When we look at the frequency of different emotions, and they have been measured by various professionals, joy is one of the highest vibrations that you can experience as a human. And when you're vibrating at a high level, the wave state is much faster. So your performance is actually faster. And we've all experienced this. When you're in joy, there's flow, there's ideas, there's creativity. A lot's happening in the brain when that's happening.

[00:15:09] And I won't go into the chemicals around it, but basically the brain is out of that fight or flight survival mode. It's in an expansive parasympathetic state where it feels at rest. It feels safe. And so that's when creativity comes. So that's when your big ideas come. That's where cohesion, team collaboration is strongest. Because when you're in joy, there's no threat. You don't need to worry about that person sitting opposite you on what they might be thinking,

[00:15:37] feeling, saying about you, what ideas they might shut down, et cetera. So it's absolutely joy is a signal of the capacity of people. And when they're experiencing joy in themselves, it's the intellectual, the creativity, et cetera. It's a very strong signal of capacity. When you're experiencing joy with the brand, be it as a customer or a staff member, there's a sense of loyalty to that.

[00:16:06] That's where your magic moments are made. That's where the memories happen. And if you think about the times when you've had the most amazing experiences, let's just stick with the concept of being at work for the moment, just to keep it simple. Those times when you've had a joyful interaction with the brand, something as amazing has happened, whether it's with colleagues or an individual achievement, achievement, it stays in your memory and it forms an attachment to the brand.

[00:16:33] So there's a really strong link between high emotional points and performance scores that people rate and often ratings. We know there's a strong link between people's customer experience or their staff experience and things like absenteeism, turnover, et cetera. So we know those links exist already. But when you're in a state of joy, it's that next level of connection to the brand.

[00:17:00] So it's a strong signal of performance for the organization. So I don't think it's fluffy at all. No, no, it's actually fine. So obviously, so many organizations matter things like satisfaction because you can actually indicate on various scales, levels of satisfaction, but you're saying something more than that. But if you think about the standard, like NPS, all the sort of standard measurements of customer satisfaction, people are getting 9s and 10s based on, high satisfaction, but not necessarily joy.

[00:17:26] So surely you've got to measure something else to get that extra level. And one would assume it's going to be something like massively high satisfaction, which goes back to that point. Oh, they're going to spend a heck of a lot more because they're doing that upsell is working. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting because satisfaction, NPS, all of those things have those rating

[00:17:49] scales and a 9 and a 10 will often be associated with a level of joy or, and likewise, a 0 or a 1 will often be associated with an emotional, a real low, but not always, not always, because you can rate a 9 or 10, but not have had an outstanding experience. It's just, it's exactly, and it's what you expect, or it might be a little bit better than you expect, but you're not necessarily joyful about it. You're just, it was great.

[00:18:17] Of course, but I expect them to form at that level. What my measurement framework is slightly different. It's not vastly different, but we're asking through the lens of joy. So we're actually asking people to rate their experience, their level of joy, the degree to which they're experiencing joy within those particular elements that we're looking at. And so we are actually asking them to indicate the joy as opposed to just generally satisfaction. And NPS is an interesting one.

[00:18:46] And I think it's one of the greatest ironies in our measurement frameworks, because we talk about being customer centric and any brand that's putting in customer satisfaction, NPS metrics, et cetera. The idea is to be, but we're actually asking about the brand, not the customer. We're asking them whether they would rate us. Would you recommend us? How would you rate us? Not what level of joy did you experience with us?

[00:19:15] It's so it's flipping the lid and putting the, putting it back on the customer experience, truly the customer experience as opposed to us as a brand and our outcome. Yeah. But I think the other thing with that is that I see that the level of joy is a, is it's a driver of the outcome might be recommendation. Sure. But not always. But the, the level of joy is the precursor to that.

[00:19:43] You are more likely to be recommending something if you've experienced joy. So we're catching it a little bit further up the chain, if that makes sense. Yeah, because actually I can see the internal application more strongly than the external one, oddly enough in my own mind, but that's fine. I'm just wrestling with the term. It's just the term is, I need to get over it. So I'm trusting the grooviness now because at least I can get around that in my own head. Yeah. So is this something like, it's a piece of SaaS? Is that a piece of software? Do people buy a system or do they come and how does the actual thing work?

[00:20:12] So it's, oh, enjoy, or meter, whichever way you want to say it. Tell me how that works. If we want to use this thing, how does that all happen? Yeah. Well, basically it becomes a program, a bit like most customer experience programs that exist right now. It's not SaaS software at this stage. So we would work with the brand to put it in place and it is effectively a survey at the end of the day that we would use to collect. But there's two elements. One is the data collection. And obviously that's the, that's the easy part. Yeah.

[00:20:41] And most organizations would have programs already in place that are doing different parts of it. This is definitely, and I know I'm deviating slightly from the actual question here, but this wouldn't be necessarily replacing what brands have at the moment, but it's an overlay. Ultimately it could well replace people's programs, but it's, it's very succinct. It's looking at 10 drivers across the customer side, 10 drivers across the staff side.

[00:21:09] And I know most engagement surveys and most customer satisfaction surveys would go down to a lot more detail. So they go down to a bit more of an operational level, if that makes sense. This is designed to keep it at that energy level of where you should really be focusing in your organization. But we would work with brands to understand which teams, which parts of the business they want to measure, how they, where their customers are, et cetera, to do get the data capture. The more interesting part is the patterns that work within it.

[00:21:36] So be deployed through, and that would be a conversation with each, each client to see where they would, how they would like to have that insight received. And their choice about whether they receive data and do their own interpretation or whether they would like to have more hands-on reporting and also workshopping to understand the results in a bit more detail. And we've designed a dashboard. It would, could be delivered via a dashboard as well. So that insights can be available there.

[00:22:05] One thing we find with a lot of our larger corporate clients, they don't want yet another dashboard that sits outside of their all, their environment already. That's not always the best mechanism for it to be delivered. So we work with the brands that we engage with to understand their best mechanism for delivery. So it's very flexible to work with them. Interesting. So you're working across these 10 factors, obviously some are internal, some are external.

[00:22:31] I like the thing, in a sense, reading around this, you talk about friction points, and I think it's quite different. That's quite unusual, isn't it? They're the things that assume either stop the joy in the person or create a problem in the process from the problem, from the person with a problematic or good joy score. Maybe that's not the right way to put it. Is that the right reading of them? I think, yeah. I've seen any of these programs really are designed to, without, really not that many

[00:22:58] talk about this, but really they're looking to understand where are the problems? Where have we got friction in the process? And so if you're looking across, and we map across, it's basically 10 drivers. Let's start at the staff side, for example. You can see the 10 drivers within the organization itself. So things like the work itself, things like the physical environment or the environment that you physically work, which for some brands that might be a physical office, other brands, they're remote.

[00:23:28] So it's, but it's capturing people's physical working environment, the sense of connection and belonging to teams. So once you start to look at those high level drivers, you can see where are our problems in the business? You might have, for example, you might have a very high ratings in things like achievement and growth and development, but really poor ratings in things like work-life balance. And then on the, so that's on, we can see that then happening within the organization.

[00:23:57] And then on the internal side, we see, oh, okay, segments of our star have really poor personal relationships because they're, and their work-life balance is completely out of whack, but they love the work they're doing and they're getting a lot of sense of achievement out of it. But actually on their personal side, we can see, okay, poor personal relationships and we can see, oh, they're not getting very many opportunities to rest and recharge.

[00:24:25] So therefore that's, we can see from that pattern, then there's risk. There's risk of burnout in the organization. Those people might be really highly driven and motivated, but there's something going on and it's possibly not sustainable. So that allows us to see the friction points in the business. And those patterns are going to be different in different, potentially in different teams.

[00:24:49] And that's where I think the danger is looking at averages because the more interesting story is underneath the hood a little bit. And I think that that's where you can deliver just data, but I think we would be missing a trick if we didn't understand the pattern sitting underneath the data and the relationships between all the pieces. Because if you just look at one side, you're not seeing the whole picture. Yes, that would make sense. Yeah.

[00:25:17] And this quantitative and qualitative, where's the balance of the measurement says? Yes. So it's quantitative predominantly, but it does have open-ended questions to understand the reasons why people are giving particular ratings. Because I think that's where the stories lie when people have had particular high points. But also, I think the other element to it is, and this is the interesting thing because I've worked in customer experience for so many years and it's almost one of these uncomfortable

[00:25:45] truths that we look at and realise people are actually bringing their emotional baggage into the current rating of a brand. So in my work, I've seen in many different forms and through qualitative work and quantitative work that you might've had a really strong experience, positive or negative, even 10 years ago. You can still, I was talking a little bit about those joyous moments. We can remember them.

[00:26:15] But people are often bringing those ratings into their current experience. And the challenge with that for leaders is capital allocation can be following the wrong signal because it's not a current problem that people are rating. It's an old wound or an old positive. It can go both ways. So I think the stories that sit underneath, but what we do actually as part of the measurement process is actually capture that. So have you had a particularly positive or negative experience?

[00:26:44] And what was that all about? So we can actually isolate current problems from old problems and look for opportunities to right off wrongs and learn from things we've done amazingly well in the past as well, through the stories that people tell in their verbatim comments. I'm see time rolling on. So let me just find a question because I always think the problem with these, especially customer measurements are challenges around expectation, especially when they're experience-based. So your point there is absolutely key, isn't it? So I used to work.

[00:27:13] So let's say we have a client. So for example, I like on cruise ships. And I would say that on cruise ships, many good cruise ships, people are extraordinarily well looked after and they're measured to death. And what the data often shows is that if someone had a fantastic experience and then the next cruise ship, however brilliant it is, just can't measure up to that. But what's happening is people are not measuring like with, and I think that's the problem, isn't it?

[00:27:39] So expectation is, I would say, almost your biggest challenge here, isn't it? Because you're measuring something. I can't think of the right word. I was going to say esoteric. I don't mean it that way. Complex. That's a better word. The complexity around the measurement just becomes more and more highlighted. But I'm sure you've got to sort that out. I think the whole area of measuring humans is inherently complex, whichever way you look at it.

[00:28:07] So I think at the end of the day, and I've worked on studies actually where we measure satisfaction and expectations and what you end up with. And you look at the gaps between whether expectations were met or not met. So I've also worked on studies where you ask people what they would rate if it was meeting expectations and what they would rate if it was exceeding. And it generally maps to a five for meeting or just meeting and an eight if it was, sorry,

[00:28:35] an eight if it was about what you would expect. But I think these things, and this is the thing, it's about getting the balance right in terms of not over trying to marry in all these different components, but also not overcomplicate it too. And I think once you start factoring in expectations as well, it does probably add a layer of complexity a little bit beyond that. Yeah.

[00:29:00] So I think just trying to remove some of the distortion from the signal makes all the difference in terms of giving leaders something a bit more tangible and that allows them to understand what's going on because some things you can't necessarily control. Yeah. But even if you can't control it, understanding it is helpful. So you can isolate. The point of all this is not just to do measurement for the sake of it. It's to make correct changes, isn't it? So actually measuring less and doing more was really this, the key thing here.

[00:29:29] I think measurement industry has got itself lost on becoming so tied up in precision and accuracy of measurements that, you know, everyone's forgotten what point it is. So Georgina, so if one of the people want to find out more about you or what you're doing or the systems or how it all comes together, can you tell us how we get in touch with you? I think best way to, best place to start would be just my LinkedIn profile. And I've just outlined all of the pieces of the puzzle there. So people can find the bits that interest them.

[00:29:59] Good. So Georgina. The joy I made is definitely outlined there. Sorry. Yeah. So joy. I read a joy. I'm sorry to say your name again. I can't remember. So it's Georgina Woodley. Sorry. I was going to say Wooley for some reason, but it's Woodley. And the site we talked about is joy-o-meter. I think that is a hyphen, isn't it? Dot com. Dot com. Yeah. Yeah. Joy-o-meter.com. Very good. Yes. And of course, you know, but systems, they don't worry about things like that.

[00:30:27] We check because this is generally a sort of new idea. And I like this idea that people are coming up with these measurements of human capacity because that's what the organizational development people like myself have been jabbering along for the last 30 years. If only we could measure this stuff. Because we all know it works. The issue is how do we prove it, isn't it? I think that's the big challenge for organizations generally. And in my conversations so far, it's probably the number one kind of point of pushback that

[00:30:54] I get is how do we, and I find it interesting actually, because there's so many different studies that have been done on this topic. But how do we link, for example, engagement with productivity, with better performance in organizations? How do we link staff and customer experiences making any difference to each other? That's still asked a lot, I think. But there have been a lot of studies that prove those links. But yeah, I think that's a big challenge in businesses. It's the return on investment.

[00:31:21] Show me that I'm going to get something more than I get from what I'm already doing. Yeah, it's about to sweat in the ass, isn't it? Let's be really honest. Anyway. Yes. Regina, thank you. I know most of you are getting late down where you are and the kangaroos need to put to bed and maybe an evening walk and paddle in the surf. I'm not that I'm jealous at all. It's been really fascinating to talk to you today. Links will be in the show notes. And such. And thank you for spending time with us today. Thank you so much, Russell. It's been a pleasure talking to you too.

[00:31:50] And I've really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you. Me too. You take care. I hope you found that episode useful and entertaining. If you want to support our work, please go to resilienceunravel.com. And you can become a member there as well. You can also send us a question there and even apply to do a podcast. You can also leave a review on Apple Podcasts or any of the other podcast hosts of your choice,

[00:32:18] as well as getting hold of some useful resources about resilience and a whole lot more. Join us next time on the next edition of Resilience Unravelled. Here I am. 놀�ible Piano Arias.