Patricia Bathory - Building relationships for success and impact

[00:00:00] Welcome to Resilience Unravelled. Hi everybody and welcome to Resilience Unravelled, a podcast that examines all aspects of personal and organisation and resilience. A huge all-encompassing subject that covers the ability to thrive in life by harnessing your cognitive, emotional, physiological and contextual abilities.

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[00:01:04] Then search for Resilience Unravelled. So let's get started. Enjoy the show! Hello, hello and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled. And with me grinning across the ocean, probably via Zoom or whatever it is, my latest guest, Patricia Bathory. So hi Patricia, nice to meet you.

[00:01:29] Nice meeting you too Russell, it's very exciting to be here today. So is it Patricia Pat, the Patster? What are you like? How do you like the name? Patricia, Patty Pat. I can go by pretty much any of those three.

[00:01:43] It's funny in England, we very rarely use Patty but it seems to be quite a common American thing. It is. And I'm actually Brazilian so 100% of people, originally from Brazil, I have a lot of friends in Brazil and family and they call me Pachi.

[00:01:58] So the T is like a soft T, it's like Pachi. I love the way that sounds. That's beautiful, yeah really. If only I would butcher that but I would love to be able to say that. It's all good.

[00:02:10] Well look, where in the world are you today then if you're from originally from Brazil? I'm originally from Brazil but I live in Calgary, Canada. It's right by the Rocky Mountains. It's beautiful here probably in my very biased opinion the prettiest place on earth. Good.

[00:02:28] And enough for that. So we're not having a discussion, that's just... So I can tell you're a therapist. Get the chance to say what needs to be said and you say it. Exactly, there you go. All those years of how does that make you feel?

[00:02:47] It's my turn to tell you how I'm feeling. This is it. Well that's great. Tell us how you ended up in Calgary and the greatest place in the world. In the most prettiest place in the world.

[00:03:01] So it's a long story. It started in 89. My family immigrated here from Brazil. So my mom's not Brazilian, she was in Brazil didn't really love it there. Moved here in 89 and I did all my education here. High school, university, my master's and then ended up marrying a Brazilian.

[00:03:19] So I ended up going to Brazil, married a Brazilian. I know it's a long story. I lived in Brazil for about 15 years and then we had two kids and then the kids were growing.

[00:03:31] And I really love everything about Canada and I wanted my kids to have that experience as well. So when they were 14, my husband agreed and let's move back to Canada. So we did and we've been here since 2017.

[00:03:46] I mean it's very interesting the way that the Zills progressed because they're very, I imagine they're extraordinarily different cultures. Absolutely. Absolutely. Different cultures, different countries and different situations altogether.

[00:04:01] And is there anything about being from Brazil or having lived for a long time in Brazil that sort of sets you apart, gives you a sort of unique flavour or aspect of Underworld?

[00:04:14] Underworld. See like living in Canada, it really makes me like everyone else because in Canada is a country of immigrants. So everybody is spiced up with a little bit of a different culture.

[00:04:28] So here there's a sense of belonging because I'm not from here, because everybody's not from here. So everybody has a sprinkle of this different culture in them.

[00:04:37] So when it comes to the way I see the world, I think it gives me an ability to see things from different perspectives. Just because of this different culture, the way Brazilians see things, the way they do things, the way the culture is there as opposed to,

[00:04:54] I wouldn't even say North American, I'd say Canada. Canada is very different from the States as well. And it just gives me a little bit of those perspectives.

[00:05:03] And then when I see something a certain way, Canada is the prettiest place in the world and somebody says, no, it's the ugliest. It actually gives me pause and it's like, okay, say more because I recognise that there's different ways of seeing the same thing.

[00:05:18] That's interesting, isn't it? It is interesting how so much of our lives is spent almost trying to get rid of differences in how we're trying to harmonise and blend and anonymise and such like.

[00:05:32] And I do think we sometimes lose that specialness of having different cultures and perspectives and the conflict that comes with that. I don't mean, you know, punching each other type conflict but that creative disagreement or professional disagreement should get between people.

[00:05:51] Yeah, because I think the differences are good. It's the differences are good at understanding the differences is what makes it really good. It's when you think that by understanding the differences you're agreeing with them or, you know, the different points of view,

[00:06:08] I think that's when we fall into problems. When we try to make other people see the world from the same perspective, we see that trying to convert, the trying to convince, I think that's what causes problems.

[00:06:20] If we can see the differences as richness really, then that's where it becomes something that adds to the culture, that adds to the value.

[00:06:34] Here in Canada, I sent my kids to school and one of the things that teachers asked was, do you guys speak Portuguese at home or do you speak English? And I said, well we speak English at home.

[00:06:45] Oh, sorry, I said we speak Portuguese at home and she says yes and keep it that way. She goes don't rob your children of the ability to have two different cultures and be experienced in two different ways of seeing the world and living their lives.

[00:06:59] So we try to keep it that way or we run the house Brazilian and we live outside. So we step outside, we're all Canadian. We step inside the house for all Brazilian. So we try to keep that just because it is. It's throwing away your culture.

[00:07:12] It really is a, it's too bad. So how does that work when the football will proper football soccer? I know you call it. So how does that work? And when the soccer comes on, you have to decide to support Brazil or Canada.

[00:07:26] Well, they've done quite well, haven't they? Well, yeah, but never as well as Brazil, right? So it's easy. Like we cheer for Brazil in the World Soccer Cup and then we cheer for Canada in the hockey cup. The countries are very different too.

[00:07:38] So we pick whatever is best for me. Well, I know you talk about when you talk a little bit more about relationships because that's your thing. But I'm also intrigued about these differences in relationships.

[00:07:49] So for example, I used to have a business partner and he and I were talking cheese. We're very, very, very unlike each other. And it was, we found it fascinating because when we, when that worked, it was incredibly synergistic. The, you know, they, we filled each other's cracks.

[00:08:07] We came together, but boy, when it didn't work, it was just awful. That was unpleasant. It was uncomfortable, not just for us, but for everybody around us. And I'm guessing lots of romantic relationships partners, husbands and wives can be the same.

[00:08:23] Because you often get this thing about opposites attracting, don't you? And I'm just interested when you see multicultural relationships coming together that must be, that must be quite an interesting sort of mix up.

[00:08:35] Yeah, it is, you know, if you look at it from a romantic relationship perspective and from a company culture perspective, the better marriages and the better company cultures are the ones that are formed with very different styles.

[00:08:55] People from different backgrounds, people from different crowds, people from different cultures, those, the rich and diverse environments, those are the best ones to be in and they thrive best.

[00:09:07] Because like you said, when they get along, when things go well, it is magic because you get different points of view. And then they make everything better. Like it's almost like they, that's the word I'm looking for. It just makes it everything, the differences makes the opinion better.

[00:09:27] The challenge then becomes when you don't get along. So what we do, like when we talk to companies and corporate training and talking about culture is how can we understand

[00:09:41] and not necessarily agree because I think that is the ultimate goal is if you can understand what the difference is, what that opinion, why that person has an opinion, why that person thinks that way, why they have that certain worldview.

[00:09:55] If you can understand, not agree, just understand, then it just makes you way more open to at least having empathy towards that point of view. And then you guys can negotiate because what happens a lot of time is we see a difference,

[00:10:09] then we immediately, we go into defense mode, whether in a romantic relationship or in a corporate setting. We go into defensive mode and then when you are defensive, then you're more concerned about defending a point of view than actually understanding what the other one has to say.

[00:10:25] So I think that would be the secret for both relationships and in a corporate setting is trying to understand what that other point of view is

[00:10:35] and where that person is coming from because then if you can overcome this, you can get to that magic where the difference is actually improve each other.

[00:10:44] Yeah, it's interesting isn't it? It's interesting that you use, I don't know whether it's on purpose or just through conditioning or training or whatever, but this idea of listening without agreeing. So it's that idea of the regerian principle isn't it?

[00:11:00] Just accepting people where they are, understanding them but not actually agreeing.

[00:11:05] I think that's quite a powerful thing in therapy that I think few managers really understand because a lot of managers seem to think that we need to understand where people are so we can persuade them that they're wrong.

[00:11:15] Yeah, it's a very different starting point isn't it? Now you do that in marriage at your peril, but couples frequently do. You better tell us about yourself because you just delved into a conversation and you've not said anything about yourself.

[00:11:28] I mean, I've read your CV and your website but nobody else has so let's start there. Tell us a bit about yourself. Wow, it's also I'm a blend of cultures. My mom's Eastern European, she's a Slovak.

[00:11:43] My dad is a Brazilian and we live in Canada. So, you know, when you talk about differences in different cultures and knowing how to navigate these differences, you can imagine how culturally different my family, my nuclear family is.

[00:11:57] So this has been it's part of my DNA. My first, this is actually being a psychotherapist is my second career.

[00:12:05] I initially got an MBA in business admin in international business. I have an import export company out of Brazil, and I've been running that for about 20 some years, where I sell juices to private label companies in the US.

[00:12:21] So I've been doing that for over 20 years, but then somewhere along the way I just really got interested in people and how they relate to each other and the importance of connection and the importance of relationships.

[00:12:32] The secret to why some people got along with everyone they seem to navigate these relationships so seamlessly and why other people struggle so much getting along with their parents with their siblings with their kids with their spouses.

[00:12:48] And, you know, I got into that and then went into psychoanalytical training became a psychoanalyst, went back to school and got a master's degree in psychology.

[00:12:57] And now I have a private practice for psychology, speak a little bit to companies again about relationships about getting along about navigating diversity, a little bit of diversity inclusion, some about connecting different generations.

[00:13:12] That's a big, big one these days, because the new generation comes with a different sense of a different set of values. So even if they are culturally the same, their values are so different the way they see the world is so different that

[00:13:26] we're having issues getting across even the same culture. So that is what my work is these days and I love every minute of it. That's fascinating isn't it. Thank you.

[00:13:37] But people forget with social animals, and that actually is very rare to a human being to exist in some sort of strange, hermetically sealed isolation. We actually spend most of our time with other people don't we.

[00:13:50] And to a certain extent we're all naturally quite fluent at handling relationships, but it doesn't mean it doesn't mean that the relationships work for us so that we connect or or effective, effective ourselves in relationships.

[00:14:03] I'm most drawn by the research that shows that the people that live the longest and happiest and such like other people in the blue zone, where they're very tightly packed together. The relationships are across generations.

[00:14:16] We're not seeing the problems with millennials and Jen, Jen, Jen whichever letter on today. Because actually there's that sense of belonging, that sense of being part of a whole. Where's in a missing in your country and mine.

[00:14:31] Which were independent and individual we've often moved led to away from home travel you have look how far you traveled. And this is a sense of sort of isolation isn't the sense of belonging and loneliness and such like.

[00:14:45] And so the relationship you have sometimes becomes really important because that is all you have and therefore it assumes that almost an importance that's not fair in the relationship itself. And strains it. And strains it yeah. Is this something you see.

[00:15:04] It strains it. And I mean, what you said is very valid because it puts on a weight on the relationship that it shouldn't be there. But then that's where we have to go in and be a little bit more intentional about not letting that be the case.

[00:15:20] Because you cannot have just one relationship in your life. I mean, I realize that you know you cannot have 20 or 30 close friends, but having only one relationship as as better as that is than having just one or that having none.

[00:15:36] You need to have more people you need to have a little bit of a village that that is a concept I talk about a lot which is it takes a village to pretty much do anything.

[00:15:47] And what I mean about you need a village is you need your partner, but then you need a couple of good friends.

[00:15:54] Those who are always there for you, you might need that cheerleader friends who that cheerleader friend who agrees to do everything was always optimistic who thinks everything's going to be great.

[00:16:03] You might need that friend who's the moral compass, the one who is maybe further along in their spiritual journey or their financial journey who can kind of serve as a mentor.

[00:16:14] You need the neighbors, right? And you need the people who are just physically close to you that the family that the neighbors and everybody in this village in all these different positions.

[00:16:26] They play a very important role. Otherwise your spouse then becomes your best friend, your confident cheerleader, your and sometimes they're just tired or sometimes they pass away or sometimes they get sick and you need to be there everything but they can't be everything to you.

[00:16:43] So having just one person, it really is the basis of that epidemic that we were calling it the lonely epidemic that we're all going through. And you're very happy with that comment because it's very true. We need to invest in these relationships.

[00:17:00] The whole idea of the book is how do we do that? How do we improve our ability to connect? How do we expand our network so that we're not as sick and as lonely and as sad that we seem the way we seem to be.

[00:17:17] You see, that's interesting, isn't it? And I think you've hit on something really fascinating. So it's not long ago. So bear with me on this train of thought. It's going to be a long and winding rail track.

[00:17:31] But it's not long ago since we used to leave school and go into a job, stay into that job until we retired and then we retired, played golf and then died.

[00:17:42] And then that was our lives. And it's interesting with relationships as well. What we're seeing now is a natural progression towards a less, sort of, I mean, there are a lot of people who are married forever, but increasingly relationships are seen as not temporary,

[00:18:00] having a purpose and then finishing. And then you'll find people who are, and I work in different parts of the world, you know, I'm quite familiar with working with people who have, for example, four wives at the same time.

[00:18:11] Or you'll have someone who will get married more than once. And it's quite interesting to see the difference in families structure breaking down from this sort of conventional Victorian

[00:18:23] time when sort of marriages became what they were on today. And I just wonder whether, I just wonder whether we're open enough to have a, so for me what I've always thought is all marriages should automatically dissolve after 10 years.

[00:18:39] So that's your marriage has dissolved. So you have to fight to keep it going. You have to reconnect every 10 years. And I think it's really interesting, isn't it? When the paradigms are the way around.

[00:18:51] Actually, you don't have to fight to save anything. You actually have to not fight to lose it. And so I just wonder whether, you know, that idea that you're coming up with this, which is that one relationship doesn't have to be anything could be reinforced by saying,

[00:19:06] well, and it will end anyway, unless you fight to keep it.

[00:19:11] I have two comments to that. But first is what we see happening about the relationships being a lot more ephemeral these days. I think it has to do with choice. I think financial dependence in the past kept a lot of marriages longer than they needed to be.

[00:19:33] So I think that's one thing. So that is one shift. The reason there's so much divorce now is partially because people can get divorced. The second is absolutely now there is no patience.

[00:19:46] So at the first problem that we have, we go immediately into I'm done. I'm out of here. I have options. So that is two reasons for why marriages are failing. When it comes to your idea, I love it because I will tell you something.

[00:20:05] When sometimes people have issues getting into marriages and this is this comes to clients come in with this problem quite often actually.

[00:20:13] I don't know if I want to get married because this is going to be forever. I don't know if I can make a forever commitment. It's too much of a wait.

[00:20:21] And one of the things that we talk about and I try to explain to them is that it's actually not forever. That commitment, it's a daily one for you but also for them.

[00:20:33] And at any moment you can dissolve that marriage and marriages are not forever. So initially they're like, no, but you don't take this seriously marriages forever. And I'm like, hang on a minute. Listen to the end of the rationale here.

[00:20:48] If you don't think the marriage is forever and if you think you can leave at any moment but also your partner can leave at any moment.

[00:20:55] This means that you need to work at it every single day. You need to earn that extra day. You need to earn that relationship.

[00:21:04] I need to earn that the partner is going to be there for me there tomorrow. So I need to behave. I need to be kind. I need to be cooperative.

[00:21:12] I need to be all the things that you should be anyway, but when you take that marriage is forever, you're like, whatever man are you going to do leave me? Yeah, exactly.

[00:21:21] And it's like right and I think that kind of thought that it is forever makes you take it for granted. Makes you stop working at it. And maybe you're right. We should change this paradigm and think that no, marriages are not forever.

[00:21:34] If you don't behave, if you're not kind and courteous, then they will leave you. And then what? So then it keeps you in check. I think the idea of earning the next day is brilliant. I love that. I think it's really because actually it implies a contract.

[00:21:54] It implies what you want and what am I going to give? And I think that's part of we used to have what we called the happy ever after contract, which was for 10 years.

[00:22:03] And at the end of so. So and this started for me and I wonder if you think things that it's so easy to get married.

[00:22:10] You can fall out of bed today, saunter down to a church or registry office or whatever. And you can be married this afternoon and then but boy try and get out of it.

[00:22:22] You know, the divorce, the money, the prenups, you've got kids, you've got this, the at the other. And to me that's entirely the wrong way around. It should be the other way around somehow than it should be a sort of, you know, there should be a trial.

[00:22:36] It's like having kids. I was thinking that should be an example or I say that because I get the, I work a lot with parenting and parents after separation and trying to get, you know, get the kids, the parents to focus on the kids.

[00:22:49] And you know, I'm like, man, it's amazing. You can have a kid without like, you cannot drive a car without taking an exam and passing a test, but you can have a child which is way more responsibility without any previous pre-check or talent or anything.

[00:23:05] So absolutely it's 60 years time. They're still hanging around. Yeah, that lovely cars gone. Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly it.

[00:23:16] So obviously, you know, I love I love what you're thinking about this because I think that's I love that phrase. I'm going to if we don't mind and steal that and pretend I'm messing up. It's yours. No, it's really not. I was attributes.

[00:23:29] So so you've written a book, which is obviously about relationships because that's your thing. So first of all, tell us about the book. Why did you write it? Who did you write it for?

[00:23:39] So the book is called connected. It's building relationships to achieve success and make a lasting impact. And the book is written for all of us. Basically what happens is I see clients and what I noticed that the common denominator for most problem is our inability to get along.

[00:23:59] And you know, therapy is not accessible to everyone. So why not take everything that I talk to my clients about everything that they learn about the insights.

[00:24:11] My clients have the best insights. Why did just not make a compilation of the best of the best and put it in a book that way we can kind of amplify the message and get more people to read about it and to know about it.

[00:24:23] The people that don't come to therapy, whether because it's not financially viable or because they just have some issue with therapy. This book is therapy in a book.

[00:24:35] Everything you need to learn how to make the good relationships that you have already better, how to evaluate the relationships that you have. Sometimes you're in a bad relationship and you don't even know it.

[00:24:45] It gives you the tools to evaluate is this working for me? Is this not working for me? How can I go about making it better? So I try to get a little bit of everything. It's an easy read.

[00:24:57] And hopefully it will help. It's something I did. It really is a project out of my heart. I did it. It's a purpose project. I really enjoyed writing it.

[00:25:09] And every 100% of the proceeds of the book will go to big brothers, big sisters and they invest in relationships. So I think it's a beautiful all around. The book is called Connected and everything is kind of connected.

[00:25:24] And I invested in an initiative that fosters connections. So that's it about the book. Fascinating. So it's quite interesting. I did that the proceeds are good somewhere else. That's something I've never thought about you're much more altruistic than I am, which is probably why you've sold more.

[00:25:46] So I mean, if someone's, I mean, there's a question coming. What's someone going to get from reading this book? I like the idea is therapy for relationships and that makes sense. But what's someone going to get as a result of reading it?

[00:26:09] So I'll start with who is the book for? I think my demographic is 35 to about 70. And the reason I say 70 is because my mother who's 75 said, it's too late for me. So I'm like, all right then.

[00:26:26] So, but what will people get out of the book? They will one, get a chance. So on chapter two, I talk about purpose. What is your purpose? What's your destination in this life?

[00:26:40] So it gets you to stop for a second and try to, you know, grab control over your life and decide where it is that you're going to go. And then chapter three, it gets you to do a roster of your relationships to evaluate. Are they good?

[00:26:55] Are they not good? So basically you're evaluating the people in your life. But then from chapter four onwards, I take that regard and I make it turn towards yourself.

[00:27:08] What are you contributing to your relationships? What part of the problem are you maybe responsible for? Where can you improve as a relationship mate? Right? It's the same thing about the conversation we're having about marriage.

[00:27:22] It's not for granted. Right? Like it's not, I want good people in my life. I want good relationships. That's lovely. We all want great relationships. But if you're not a good relationship person yourself, is that fair to desire? Is it fair to want good relationships when you're not a good person?

[00:27:41] When you're not a good partner, when you're not a good friend. It's an unfair expectation. So from chapter four onwards, it is about what can you do to improve yourself? Because that's what therapy is, right? People come to therapy and they always complain about the other person.

[00:27:57] My husband is this and my kids are that and my friends and my parents and everybody's at fault except themselves. And it's a process and I will sit through that and you know, there's a place to listen and to embrace and to hold and it's all good.

[00:28:11] But eventually we can't change any of those people. You can only change yourself. Right? What part of yourself can you change to improve those relationships? So that's what people can expect out of the book. Is ways that you can improve yourself so that your relationships improve?

[00:28:30] And how you earn the next day. See, you're using it very well. That is an excellent point to use it. Yes. You're 50% of every relationship. So if you want to earn the next day with that person, you got to do your 50%.

[00:28:46] You see, that's the headline for the book. I'm just looking on Amazon at your reviews connect to building relationships to achieve success and making a lasting impact.

[00:29:00] I'll tell you this. Writing this book, it was a therapeutic process for me. Right? Because think about this as I'm writing for my readers that they need to be self aware that they need to evaluate this. Are you doing that?

[00:29:16] I'm writing and going, Oh my God, I am not doing this. Oh my God, I am not doing that. So it became very, it was very therapeutic. A lot of research went into the book. There's some research in it.

[00:29:30] There's some insight from my clients. And as I'm writing and I'm realizing that, Hey, there's some things I need to change and improve in myself for my relationships to even to improve it even more.

[00:29:40] And do you do those things? Because it's often therapists often have the worst relationships. I mean, especially parenting. I mean, often, I mean, this is purely based on my own observations.

[00:29:52] So it has no statistical validity at all. But let's see all the phrase about cobalas children be the worst shot. You know, it's often the case that counselors never apply their own.

[00:30:02] It's very, you know what that is very true. It's very true. I think you'd have to entree my kids to see what their opinion is on my parenting. But you're absolutely true.

[00:30:11] There's actually an exercise that, you know, again, trying to be self aware trying to be self critical. This is something I'm trying to implement in my house because it was my brother's suggestion and he is very right. He's doing in his house.

[00:30:25] I'm trying to do it here, which is getting your family to rate you. So my brother and I might, can you rate me as a sister? So his rating is whatever grade he gives me in his eye. Okay, here's your high points. You always reach out. You're always calling. Always make sure we meet.

[00:30:40] We're always this and then what's my low points? You're still bossy. You still want things your way. So he does that, that you need to have an open and transparent relationship and things have to do well to get that kind of a feedback.

[00:30:54] So that's a feedback I got as a sister. And then you do that with your spouse. How would you rate me as a spouse? Well here this and these are your good points and these are your low points. And then you ask your kids this right.

[00:31:07] So I do, I ask my kids a lot, especially when I know I failed them or you know, and this is the one thing I found. Sometimes when you think you have failed your children, it doesn't register as a failure to them. What is registering to them as a failure is something you're absolutely unaware about.

[00:31:29] Because to you is no big deal. Yeah, I love that. I think that's absolutely brilliant idea. But if you don't mind, I'm not going to do that with my wife. You're rather not. No, I want to live in ignorance.

[00:31:41] Well, we're both undivided at the moment. So both very, very cranky. So I know what the results would be. Well, we talked about the sort of the beautiful, the shiny side of relationships, but there's a lot of relationships out there which are far from that.

[00:31:52] So you have co dependency, coercive control. We've got narcissistic relationships. We've got victims. We've got bullies. We've got, you know, the sort of dark personality side of relationships as well.

[00:32:06] And a lot of people look at these relationships and they don't understand that they actually work for the people who are in them. Often they don't. And that's why, you know, the comes to therapists is quite interesting how somebody's very peculiar relationship can work for them.

[00:32:24] And I just, I just wondered what your view would be on that. You elaborate on that question a little bit more because. Oh no, don't make me say it again.

[00:32:33] Well, no, no, no, I understood the question. I just don't know what you're saying is let's say a co dependent relationship. Are you saying that a co dependent relationship works for them?

[00:32:43] Well, sometimes it does. It's not. It's a it's this thing about where we sometimes categorize relationships that seem to be dysfunctional, but actually work well for the people within it.

[00:32:54] So for example, if you have a victim and a bully in a relationship, as long as the victim enjoys being a victim and the bully enjoys being the bully, then it's sort of working.

[00:33:03] But to the external world, that's a bad relationship. And this is where the rating thing I think is where the I think that's what what drove me to think about this. Because actually when we're comparing relationships, they have such different purposes. Don't they?

[00:33:15] They do, but this is so I don't think the victim. So I do think I agree with you in the sense that the victim is an enabler by staying.

[00:33:25] You enable that kind of behavior, right? By not putting a stop to it and leaving, you end up enabling the kind of behavior the bully has. So I'm with you there. But I don't think the victim is ever happy to be the victim.

[00:33:40] I think what happens is they end up in that position because maybe they're repeating a pattern that they saw or they don't have the self awareness or the tools to get out of it. Or sometimes people are not even aware that they have the choice.

[00:33:54] And I think that is the mode. The biggest thing when people come to therapy and realize that they can drive their own life. You can make different choices. You're not bound to be married to somebody for the rest of your life.

[00:34:10] If they're not earning that next day, you can leave. You can try to improve. You can try to invest in that. You can try to turn it around and reinvent. But if that doesn't work, there is a plan B.

[00:34:20] Oh, but I never thought about ever getting a divorce. Nobody does. But that does not mean you can't make a plan B just because you don't have one today. You can construct one. You can reinvent, reimagine, re-engineer. And that is the big thing about therapy is the re-everything.

[00:34:38] This possibility of a better life. So I think that's the only thing I'm picking on is, I don't know if people are happy in dysfunctional relationships. I think they just don't think they have a choice.

[00:34:53] It is fascinating to listen to you chat away because both of us had a commercial career before we went into the therapeutic group. And it's interesting how the corporate paradigms sort of informed our therapeutic process. So even things like rating and evaluating and all that sort of stuff.

[00:35:13] And that idea that you can leave, that you have a choice you can leave and all that sort of stuff. And it's a contrast such like.

[00:35:19] And I think there's something quite helpful about bringing different worlds together, which is where we started because actually what we're saying here is you can learn things from the cultural aspects of the commercial world bring into individual therapies at relationships.

[00:35:34] And I think it's that beautiful thing around cultures, around diversity, around relationships. The more difference we have in the world, it's just a better thing already, isn't it? Yeah, it really is.

[00:35:46] And sometimes going back to the dysfunctional relationships, if both realize and become aware, they can change too. Like this possibility of change and I think this is what I love about psychology is the fact that the possibility is endless.

[00:36:02] And what I love about business is the fact that if we act upon them, because it's not enough for the possibilities to exist. If there's no action, there's no change. That's right.

[00:36:15] So the business brings that, okay, but let's evaluate is it good? Is it bad? Do you go? Do you stay? That Cartesian thinking? Now, you and I, I think the trouble is we agree on quite a lot here.

[00:36:30] So before we just start congratulating each other on how marvelous we both are, I think we've got to draw a veil over this. The book is written by Patricia Bathory. I still love that name. And it's called Connected, Building Relationships to Achieve Success and Make Our Lasting Impact.

[00:36:45] Interesting your name Bathory is quite famous. It goes back quite a long way. It's got all sorts of interesting things attached to it.

[00:36:51] So when I was Googling the book earlier, it's a bunch to across the Bathory Prize and the Bathory family and also some different bits and bolts. So I'll have to look at that later. At one point or another, I think there was a king in Hungary called Bathory.

[00:37:05] Yeah, Poland. You're talking to blood over here. I was going to say you, I could sit here being physician. You can see it, hey? I'm not going to sit here and talk to you. I'm going to sit here being physician.

[00:37:18] But if people want to reach out and talk to you, get in touch with you, connect with you. Patricia, how would they do that? Definitely LinkedIn is a good way. Connect with me at LinkedIn. I would love to answer questions or connect more and talk more.

[00:37:31] Otherwise, I have a website, www.patriciabathory.com. There's information on the book, information on sessions, on speaking, whatever you want. I'll be there. Fantastic. Well, it's been an absolute joy to talk to you. I really enjoyed it and thank you so much for spending time with us today.

[00:37:51] And good luck with the book. I'm sure it's already got loads of five-star reviews, fantastic news. And have a good evening and thank you so much for spending time with us today. Thank you so much, Russell. It's been a pleasure and lovely to talk to you today.

[00:38:05] All right. You take care. Hi. Thanks for listening. Hopefully that was a useful and interesting episode. As I said earlier, you can support our work by leaving a review, which does drive enhanced exposure. Or you can donate on our site, which is at QEDOD.com.

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