Rikimah Glymph - Leadership challenges and opportunities in non-profit organisations

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[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled and with me tonight a really interesting

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: guest. I'm saying tonight, it is tonight for me but of course it's not tonight

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_00]: for you Rikima is it? And my guest tonight is Rikima Glimph, which is a fantastic name

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: as someone who likes names, likes words. I'm loving both of those. So first of all,

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_01]: hello. Hi, thank you for having me. I can tell

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_00]: about the accent that you are across the pond. So where in the world are you?

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right. I am actually located physically in Maryland on the East Coast side of

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: the United States. Fantastic. I don't think I've ever been

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_00]: to Maryland actually. No? What's famous about Maryland?

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Maryland, I feel like people when they think Maryland, they think that Maryland

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: crab, blue crabs. Lots and lots of people come here for crab, to eat crabs.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_01]: These guys are known for La Crosse. He's like no, but I'm about 20 minutes

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: as I've watched in DC. Oh right now I've got you. Now I know where you

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_00]: are. Thank you. I'm a Brit. I only know Disneyland and the White House. That's not

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_00]: true. I've traveled a lot of the US and worked there. Well look, tell us a little

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: bit about yourself. Thanks for being here. Start the conversation. Tell us your story.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no. I'm excited to be here. Let's see. I don't even know where to start

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_01]: besides these days I'm steeped in wellness work, but I come from a very long line

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: of different kinds of work, but all iterations of caring for people. Originally

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: when I came to the DC area, I was like, be a diplomat. Of course that was

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_01]: all about trying to love up on humans and my background is former in

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_01]: business. So I said, let me take care of these embassies and therefore I

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: can take care of our folks and it's going to be great. A couple of years

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: down the road, I ended up landing into a bunch of nonprofits that were

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: focused on social justice, environmental justice, racial justice, all the things

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and fell in love with that area of work, working for movement organizations that

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: prioritized trying to figure out what would be good for all of us, not some of us.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And that work, I was a chief operating officer. And so for a long time I was

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: doing finance HR, people related work, right? Like what inspires and what keeps

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: people on the job. And over a couple of years I decided I didn't love finance. And

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I ended up sort of saying, actually you like the people part of this more than

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: you like the numbers. And so maybe you can get involved with human resources

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and that took me both global as well as on political campaigns doing a lot

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: of that same kind of work. And fast forward maybe several years down the

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_01]: road, I said, do you love people work, but you don't like this version

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: of people work. You want to work with people in a way where you are

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: uninhibited to inspire and to motivate and to walk with people as

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: they're going through their different life experiences. So a small quick fact

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: about me is that I come from a long line of young fake dealers in our family.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the idea of caring about a human and wanting to nurture them

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and wanting to walk with them on a journey, didn't feel unfamiliar.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It actually felt extremely familiar. It was the first time I was saying it

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_01]: or talking about it in that way. So less about policies, procedure,

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: protocol and organization, more about I care about you today as this human

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: being that's right in front of me helping. What can we do together so that

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_01]: you can self actualize and a lot of the same ways a lot of us aspire to do.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And that kind of led to me in the bonus environment. More and more a lot

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: of the clients I was doing management coaching with and stuff kept saying,

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: how do you feel like a life coach? You don't feel like a manager coach.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And I kept saying why? And they're like this, when you talk to us,

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: you're not saying I'm doing this because I want you to survive with this

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_01]: org and I want you to follow all these rules and protocols and all these things.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: You're saying, hey, but if the org is your problem too, let's talk about

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_01]: what that looks like and what we need to do to make sure you're not

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_01]: crying on the job and that you remember that like you were worthy of

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_01]: working in an environment or being an environment that holds you

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: in the right way. And so more and more there was a mirror put in front

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: of me from people that I was working with saying, you don't tell us to

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: do that. You never propagate that. You're always like, what is best for you?

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And let's discover that thing together if you don't know.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So I got really steeped in the wellness stuff and I started with a lot of wellness retreats

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_01]: for a lot of top leaders and the work that I was talking about with the nonprofits

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: because I said, well, organization isn't business. It's not going to give you

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: everything you need. But if you're not feeling okay, if you're working out and eating,

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you still feel blue, that's because there's deeper conversations for us to be having.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that sort of that work took off. We wrote a couple of wellness related books

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: with the intention of making the knowledge less cost prohibitive as opposed to someone

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: feeling like they had to go to a retreat, which were not inexpensive because I was hosting

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_01]: them overseas and other environments because of course environmental wellness sometimes for

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: means getting out of a place we live in to get into places that feel neutralized or healing.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we started writing books and fast forward to today, we're doing a lot of that same kind

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: of work. So lots of different, our hands are in lots of different kinds of work, but all

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_00]: very centered on the human experience. Yes. So you said you come from a long line of,

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: you say faith healers. So I'm wondering what your motivation is for all of this portfolio

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_00]: of stuff. I mean, you talked about having people and get that, but what's the bigger

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: deeper purpose behind all of what you're doing? I mean, I wake up every day and I'm constantly

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: thinking in my own mind, how can I be helpful? How can I make sure that when I go out into the

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_01]: world, I'm leaving a positive impact in the world? It is almost always that I'm bumping into

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: people and I immediately in reading them in a way that I didn't intend to be reading them.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I can always tell you who's sad. I can always tell you that someone's going through something

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: that they don't really want to be talking about. I can always tell you by when someone's

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: leading with authenticity versus a lack of genuine nature, all of these things. So when

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I walk into the world, there's a lot that I'm not trying to do that keeps surfacing.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And so what happens is that then I wake up one day and I said, no, my purpose is to

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: help people. This is purpose. The purpose is that the gift of God is being able to read people.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I need to sit with people and I need to share with them whatever I know. And if I don't know

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: it, I need to go figure it out and go find it, but just make sure that this information

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: is in people's hands so that they feel like they have agency and autonomy over their ability

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: to feel well. Do you think there's any sort of real difference between leadership in a

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00]: profit and leadership in a profit? Because they're such different worlds, aren't they?

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And the glib answer is no. But I wonder what you think.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. I mean, I would say no, and I'm also going to say yes. The reason being is that in

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_01]: the nonprofit space, these guys are so hung up on keeping funder money that oftentimes there's

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of pressure coming from leadership to maintain certain bits of work, to work in

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_01]: ways to speak out or not speak out against things. And that's all dictated and predicated

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: based on these foundations that they are getting all of the resources from. And there

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_01]: is an extra added pressure around how resources get spent when you feel like it's coming from

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: places where you don't know if the money is going to come again, or from people who are

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: giving you their last couple of dimes. Whereas in a for-profit space, it feels to me

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: there's more agency and more freedom to move in ways that don't have to be based on

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: core values or principles, the ways that these particular organizations are set up.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Their missions are all set up within these progressive nonprofits. Their missions are all

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_01]: set up around these core values and ways of operating in a world where I don't find

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_01]: for-profits are necessarily steeped in that. So that makes me feel like the for-profits

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_01]: may have a little bit more agency over how their leadership shows up. Whereas I think

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_01]: a nonprofit feels a little bit more rigid to me and less like they have agency in that way.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I've been working in a non-profit recently

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and the key variable for me is the dynamic of having volunteers in the organization.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Because you don't get those in a commercial organization because it's sort of a coin

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: in the coin. You have a non-profit that has a completely different

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_00]: operated closed system and with a nonprofit you have this group of people who need,

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I think, a completely different leadership style and leadership approach. Some of them are

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_00]: volunteering not because of the nonprofits but because of the cause. And for them sometimes

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_00]: organization gets in the way of helping the cause. And you very rarely get that problem

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: in the commercial world and you often get the problem in nonprofits of over engagement.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas in profitable companies you get the problem of under engagement. So I wonder

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: whether there needs to be a new model of non-profit leadership because I just wonder

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00]: whether the traditional models are just failing a little bit.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think so. And also to keep in mind that many of the people coming in the nonprofit

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: industrial complex, I've told it, these guys are coming oftentimes from places of trauma.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what's driving them into these mission-oriented organizations. And so

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_01]: for me, I think that's what leaderships are bumping up against right now with this whole

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: silent flight or these guys who were just silently resigning or stepping away from

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_01]: or even trying to unionize the heck out of every organization they walk into these days.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it has a lot to do with what brought people into the work in the first place,

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: which are these missions. I want to save all the dogs and cats in the world.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: This organization is telling us that we got to focus on some other stuff over here,

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: but I want to save dogs and cats. And not only do I want to save dogs and cats,

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to save them the way I think we should be saving them.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And so there is a level of commitment to the kinds of pauses that they were walking into

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that I think it creates this unhealthy balance a little bit, right? Where it's like,

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: so no wonder why you guys are all burnt out because you're throwing all your eggs into

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: that basket because it means that much to you. And you're forgetting that the human experience is

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: that you can work on those things, but you're playing a long game. You're not playing a short

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: game. And that means you need to be able to sustain. Yes.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that the, you often find, yeah, that's just an interesting point, isn't it?

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You often find that, I mean, lots of commercial companies live longer than the life of the leader.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Although CEOs now have an average lifespan of two and a quarter years in the job.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_00]: In our world we call it football, you call it soccer, but they're like football managers

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_00]: now. They're sort of hired and fired in a way. And there's a lot more interim work,

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_00]: but you don't see that so much in the charity or not-for-profit sector because people

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_00]: are, you're right, they're doing something where they're sort of handing on the baton

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: to the next person a little bit more. Well, and the leaders are oftentimes

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01]: the ones that founded the non-profit. Yeah, that's true.

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Unless you're talking about the older non-profits who are more established,

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: pass your 10-year or 20-year mark, oftentimes those newer, scrappy startup

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_01]: non-profits within that sort of one to 15-year mark are still being ran by the

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_00]: first CEOs, which oftentimes are the founders. Yeah, but that's interesting because of

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_00]: organizations as well. And I'm also thinking of there's a peculiar mix, isn't it? There's

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_00]: family businesses who are sort of a blend often of a not-for-profit because the purpose of the

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_00]: business is to be handed over after a generation. And I think it's fascinating

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: because if you look at all the leadership books which are written and they're all

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_00]: written for a certain size and type of organization. And I work in different parts

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: of the world and we promote this, particularly American view of the world to Africa and

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_00]: the Far East and such like. And it just doesn't land because the, you know,

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: the worlds are so different. And I don't know whether we land leadership well in

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: these different sectors either. Yeah, no, I don't think so. I think that

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_01]: because then what we're up against are cultural norms, right? So I've worked

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: internationally probably the last 15 years. And one of the things that I have seen is

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: every time we have to stand up an organization in a different country,

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_01]: it comes with a different set of conversations about what are the working norms, right?

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: There are some places around the world that they're on more of a now later schedule.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So they're not going to be on this sort of experience around the American and British way,

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: which is like, hey, we sit by the clock. Right? Or, you know, some cultures are used

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_01]: to having different types of benefits. So there's more emphasis placed on maternal health

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and, you know, on offices set up for nursing and these types of things.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Other countries are like, uh-huh. And so we're going to give you all this

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: extended time off, but we're not trying to see any of that. And so we're not operating

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_01]: in these ways. Right? So I think, you know, some of it is the leadership experience,

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_01]: but some of it is also what's culturally relevant. We have had instances where we

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: have had other countries tell us, hey, we don't operate the way you do. We are more

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: collective. We are more, you know, in our decision-making whereas when you start to

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01]: think about the U S perspective, for example, decision-making oftentimes a

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_01]: hierarchical experience or, you know, I think only more recently it's becoming

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_01]: more of a group exercise, right? But even in that group exercise, you know,

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: you've got a contingency of people who are saying, uh, we want to have a more

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_01]: flat organization and you'll hear folks states. I would say that's real European

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_01]: view, but that's never going to fly here because here it's about the hierarchy

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_00]: experience. Right? Um, but in some parts of the world, uh, you wouldn't even be

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: in a leadership position. That's exactly right. So there's been certain places,

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: for example, when I've gone into India and previous employment experiences

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: where I've had to take a backseat because they wouldn't have a real

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: honest conversation with me, both for gender purposes, race purposes, all

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_01]: of the kinds of things were showing up in that space. And so I do think that

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: like when people are working organizations or when people are standing

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: up organizations internationally, they need to really do the work to

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: understand the, what is considered norms, right? And we can push them

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: below as much as we want, but when you throw staff into that equation,

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: you do need to understand both their expectations, uh, what they are

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: accustomed to and whether or not it's the culture and the way you all

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: moving is adaptable enough to survive in an environment like that.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Right? Our offices in India did not operate the same way as our offices

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: in Germany, as our offices in South Africa.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. And it's interesting and look at, look at any management

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: textbook. None of that's mentioned. So I mean, it's become,

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say fashionable. I don't mean the word fashionable

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and sense of it being a fad. I would be saying fashionable

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_00]: in the sense of it being something that's seems to be appearing more,

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_00]: but it does seem fashionable that leaders go on retreats.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And so can you tell me, and you're not the first person to sit

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_00]: in front of me who talks about running leadership treats. And I've

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: done leadership treats, which are all about learning and deep

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_00]: diving, but there seems to be lower trend towards more wellness

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: type retreat. So I know you're involved in that world. Can you

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: tell me a bit more about it? Yeah, that's right. So, so what's

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_01]: happened is that there are some of us who are standing up

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: retreats that are specific to people who are in management. So

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: not, not your mental managers, your mental managers are going to

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: a different kind of retreat, but we're talking about your,

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_01]: your directors, your C-suite types. Right? And the reason

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: being is that the type of decompressing they've got to be

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: able to do is not what they can do with your traditional

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: staff member. Not if it is about their fiduciary responsibility

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and for them thinking about legalities and all of these

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: things. There is a, there is a known fact that mixing up

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: different levels means that someone's not going to be as open

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: as they need to be. Because the way in which we are accustomed

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: to dealing with confidential information or otherwise also

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_01]: isn't the same. So we have people come out and our

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: retreats are a little bit different than the traditional

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: leadership experience. So we've gone through several different

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: kinds of retreating experiences that were about building

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: leaderful skills. Our retreats are about building the

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: person who then has to execute the leaderful skills.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Right? So what we find in the nonprofit experience is that a

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: lot of these leaders never got the kind of space to get

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to know themselves so that they can be the kind of

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: leader that is reflective, for example. Right? A lot of

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: the challenges happening state side is you have leaders who

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_01]: are taking all this stuff personal and it's like, Hey,

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: this is business, not personal. And also like,

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, we have to be able to be both self-reflective

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and also be able to put ourselves in other people's shoes.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But that means that we've got to improve our emotional

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: intelligence. And so taking them through a process where

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: both we are creating an experience where they can see

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: themselves, learn some things about their management style,

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_01]: learn some things about their communication style.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And then within a group setting, talk a little bit

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: about how communication management, all of these

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_01]: things shows up for different kinds of people. Am I a red

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: color where I'm a director or, you know, where I want to

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_01]: charge and dictate. Those are usually the ones with the

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: stronger personalities or, and I'm more of a helper.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I am a green, I'm a cool green, a cool green blue.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And what that means is I'm more of a helper supporter

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_01]: type. I don't need to be in the driver's seat all the

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: time, but that means I can get along in pretty much

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: any environment so long as I'm not running into

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: directors who want to micromanage and drive me

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_01]: nuts. So we take them through a process where they

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: learn these types of things about both their,

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: about how they show up as well as the different ways

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: in which staff might show up. And then we do some

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: work around some silent journaling and stuff where

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: we ask them critical questions. I mean, basic

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_01]: things, but you could never believe the kind of

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_01]: gratefulness people have like write a love note

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: to yourself. Well, people laughed at me when I

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01]: originally brought it to the table. The problem is

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_01]: is that a lot of us are lacking a lot of that

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of stuff. Well, if we don't love ourselves,

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: how can we love other people? How can we treat

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_01]: other people with compassion or with grace or

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: all of these things when we don't even exhibit it

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: or show it for ourselves? That's true. And so

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a question about the application. It's

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: not about the questions, it's about what the

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_01]: question evokes and whether or not you could

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_01]: meet that or not. Right. And that tells me

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: when we got work to do, work to do in

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: these certain areas also. So we take them

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: through a series of journals also, journaling

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: exercises over the course of the days. And

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: then I do some one-to-one coaching with

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: people. Like I said, I tend to be available

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: people read and so both going through the

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: questions, having them do some reflection,

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: going through a couple of surveys and

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: watching how the group unfolds over the

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: course of a period of time allows for me to

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: sit with people and say, now let's have a

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: real conversation. Let's do this. Right. We

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: go take them have some fun so that they

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: can as they're opening up containers, they

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: can close them back. Right. If we leave

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: them all emotional, then they're going to be

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: messes by the time they go home. So there's

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: always some level of decompression, unwinding

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: attached to every single day. And by the

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: time they leave, I have not had that one

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_01]: person tell me that they did not have a

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: market difference and the way in which

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_01]: they were showing up on the job, the

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: ways in which they showed up at home.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And it has everything to do if you want

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: my opinion, it has everything to do with

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: being able to hold up a mirror to

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_01]: people and say, aha, look at who you are.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Look at the way you show up. Look at the

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: way you show up. And then let's talk

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: about how other people experience that. And

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: now they're in, I think, a more reflective,

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_01]: a more sort of, I think, careful experience

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: around trying to make sure that they are

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: walking in a way where they are sending

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: the signal to people, the signal they

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: meant to be sending. Right. So it's

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_01]: been really powerful. We've had a lot

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_01]: of really big movement leader type

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_01]: folks who were running these bigger

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_01]: nonprofits come through and all of them

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_01]: have had the same kind of feedback. And

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I do think for whatever it's worth,

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: once you get into leadership, no one is

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: asking how you're doing these days. You

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_01]: know, like it's not a how are you doing?

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a how are you dealing with

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_01]: your stress? It's not a, hey, if your

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: staff are unionizing, maybe that tells

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: me a couple of things about the way

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: this place is being ran and we should

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: really take this stuff into stock.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. It's usually when that happens,

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: we know that it's because of the

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: thing. It's because of a couple of things

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_01]: going on. So it just allows for them,

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, to have their minds opened

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit more to the possibility

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: of like they still have grown into do

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and not just growing, but like what are

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: the areas I need to grow them? What

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: direction do I take my growing in? A

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_01]: lot of leaders tell me they have no

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_01]: idea where to start. They've been in

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_01]: leadership operating the same way for

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: years and they're surrounded by staff

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_01]: who don't want to lose their job.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So they're not going to be honest.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_01]: They're surrounded by board members who

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: were treating them with fragile sets

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: of gloves. And so they need a neutral

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_01]: third party person to say it in a way

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that they can hear it without there

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_01]: being anything to lose and also

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: anything to gain.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Yes, that sort of

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_00]: critical friend role is vital, isn't

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_00]: it? Whether you're a coach or

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: in a leadership retreat or something,

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's undervalued by

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: leaders until you've had it. Then

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_00]: once you've had it, you realize

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_00]: actually it's probably the most

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: important leadership thing we learn

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_00]: really, isn't it? But we tend

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_00]: not to use it until we've

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_00]: stepped aside and become non-executive

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_00]: or become coaches or whatever.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Fascinating. Well look, it's been

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_00]: absolutely joy to talk to you. I've

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_00]: learned ever so much.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_00]: If people want to engage with you,

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: find out more about retreats, find

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_00]: out more about the work you do.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: How would they do that?

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I mean, we're always online

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: so we can, you know, folks can find

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: us on the web at

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_01]: bewell365.org. They can also

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: find us on Instagram and on Facebook

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and LinkedIn as well.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, many places.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we link up as well. So if

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: anybody's linked into me, they'll

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_00]: be able to link to you as well.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So that'll help.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And fantastic. Any closing thought

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_00]: as we go as to think about

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_00]: leadership or wellness? Is there any

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of parting thought you'd like

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: people to think about?

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just think people should be

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_01]: aware that like it's never too late.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're never too old, right?

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You're never too old. You're never

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: too experienced. You're never too

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: anything every day. If we're

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_01]: working on being our best selves,

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: it means that there's work to be done.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And so when we are in these leader

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: experiences, sometimes it's hard

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: because we don't know who to talk

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: to, who we can trust, you know,

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: who knows what they know.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think, you know, getting

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_01]: yourself a nice network of people

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_01]: who are, you know, who have gone

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: through the leadership experience

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that you can share things with

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_01]: without being inhibited, for

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: example, might be really good.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the other thing too is

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_01]: to remember wellness doesn't

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_01]: just happen overnight, right?

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It requires work.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And so if we think about how

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_01]: society tells us, go make

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: sure you eat all your wheat

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: eats and workout every day.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Add some clients who come to me

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and say, and I still feel good.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I still don't feel okay.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And my response is well, because

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_01]: wellness has at least six other

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_01]: areas that you need to care about.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_01]: How's your social stuff?

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: How's your spirit?

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_01]: How's your emotional situation?

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, how's your environment?

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. And so I think that

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_01]: leaders need to ask themselves

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: the same questions, which is

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: like, Hey, if I'm, if I'm

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: feeling heavy, what's happening

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_01]: for me and maybe even as a

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_01]: leader, I can go and go

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and work with some people also

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that will help me to unpack

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_01]: this more so that you need the

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_01]: best leader I can be because

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_01]: that those are the kinds of

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: leaders I love the ones who've

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_01]: waked up and say, you know what?

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have all the tools.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me go find someone who's

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_01]: got some more tools so I can

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01]: sharpen the tools for my bullshit.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: That's it.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Sharpen the saw that all

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Stephen Covey was there.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_00]: But ever so true.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Rikima, so much

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: for spending time with us tonight.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been really, really lovely.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And we'll put all the links

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_00]: in the show notes and thank

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_00]: you for spending time with us today.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_00]: You take care.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, thanks for listening.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully that was a useful

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and interesting episode.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_00]: As I said earlier, you can support

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_00]: our work by leaving a review

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_00]: which does drive enhanced exposure

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: or you can donate on our site

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_00]: which is at QEDOD.com

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: You can purchase our series of books

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: all about unraveling resilience

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_00]: leadership management and anxiety

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00]: at QEDOD.com forward slash extras

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_00]: along with some other free

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_00]: resources available on the site.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_00]: We've also got a Patreon page

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and you of course can send us

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_00]: questions, ideas, thoughts

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_00]: conversations and fresh

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_00]: subjects at info at QEDOD.com

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully there's something there for you.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Catch you next time around.