Stephen Bell - The Power of Music from the Perspective of the Conductor

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[00:01:12] I'm delighted this week to be talking to an old colleague of mine. Now, many, many years ago, I used to be at the Halls Residence in London when I was at the Royal College of Music. And two doors down was a very famous horn player who became a conductor called Stephen Bell. And he is Stephen Bell, but not that one.

[00:01:33] I'll be thinking this one. This one is more famous, more handsome. Oh, please. More Irish.

[00:01:40] You know, that's funny you should start with Stephen Bell, the horn player. The number of people who have messaged me over the years to say, are you conducting the Halle tonight? And I go, no, that's the other Stephen Bell.

[00:01:54] Yes, Stephen Bell. Well, I'm delighted to talk to this Stephen Bell, who I've known for many years, other years, and have completely different concepts.

[00:02:02] So, we may not get into that. So, there you go. But Stephen, first of all, thank you for doing this. Thank you for joining me.

[00:02:08] It's a pleasure.

[00:02:09] Say hi and tell us a little bit about yourself.

[00:02:11] Hi. Hi, everybody. Well, hi, Russell. I mean, I've known Russell for a long time, but not actually in the musical sphere, which is fascinating.

[00:02:19] As you say, another conversation. So, I'm probably a parallel person.

[00:02:23] I've been doing commercial work for 30-odd years in largely automotive, but recently getting into sustainability practices of all things.

[00:02:34] But my passion, my love, my thing was and is music. I went to university to study music. I went on from there to study conducting and pianist, bassoonist, of all things.

[00:02:50] Russell's a viola player, so we connect because viola and bassoon are strangely neglected, but essential instruments, aren't they?

[00:02:58] Definitely.

[00:02:59] They can't do without them.

[00:03:01] Who else would find the work if it weren't for the bassoonists and violists?

[00:03:05] Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, I have my teacher at school to thank for this because at the age of 14, he said to me, Stephen, I'd like you to try conducting a school band.

[00:03:17] And, of course, being a little bit, being Irish and being a little bit overconfident, I'm not sure what that's compensating for.

[00:03:22] We can get to that in another podcast. I said, oh, yes, of course, I can do that. That's no problem.

[00:03:27] And I stood in front of the school band conducting something. And I realized that all I was doing was making gestures as they played the music.

[00:03:37] I wasn't contributing anything, but I got a passion for it. I thought, this is fascinating. I absolutely love this.

[00:03:43] And then years later, when I went to university, a dear professor there, or Robin Bowman, his name is, he's still playing.

[00:03:52] He's still playing yesterday up in Birmingham. Fantastic accompanist.

[00:03:56] And I remember he said, oh, Stephen, would you be my page turner? Yes, I'd be happy to be your page turner.

[00:04:03] And in would come the Allegri String Quartet. Oh, wow.

[00:04:09] And he would sit at the piano and they would do, this is in the Turner Sims Concert Hall in Southampton.

[00:04:16] And they'd be doing a Brahms piano quartet. And just to sit there and watch the music and to watch these people play and to be able to,

[00:04:28] people don't realize that a page turning job is so stressful.

[00:04:32] Yeah, it must be.

[00:04:33] It is, especially if there's a repeat that comes in, you think, how many pages do I go back?

[00:04:38] And how long arms do you have to have to be able to stretch all that weight?

[00:04:41] Well, you have to be able to stand in front of the piano and just reach over them.

[00:04:47] But this got me into the world of observing professional musicians.

[00:04:51] And then Robin said to me one day, I can't do the, it was Lock Sock, Light Operatic Society.

[00:04:58] I can't direct them anymore. I haven't got time. Would you do it?

[00:05:01] And do you know what this has told me is I've fallen into things, Russell, in life because I've maybe come alongside somebody.

[00:05:10] And that's been a pattern of mine is coming along or being asked by somebody to do this or to do that or to do the other.

[00:05:16] And I've never sorted out for myself, which is possibly a failing, but I've ended up doing something and then really pushing on it.

[00:05:23] So I started, I ended up conducting the university orchestra, forming a little orchestra, the Hampshire Symphony.

[00:05:30] And before I knew it, I was doing conducting things and I had a real passion for either brass bands or symphonic wind bands or choirs or orchestras.

[00:05:41] So I've been in all of those genres, as we call them.

[00:05:45] And then I realized I need some technical, I need some technical help here because I don't really know what I'm doing.

[00:05:51] Because if you look, it's a bit like running.

[00:05:54] We could do a podcast and running.

[00:05:56] I'm an obsessive runner, but everybody runs differently.

[00:06:00] It's biomechanics.

[00:06:01] And it's fascinating how people run or walk for that matter.

[00:06:05] And it's the same with conducting.

[00:06:09] A hundred conductors all will, because it's biomechanics.

[00:06:13] There are certain technical things you need to, we all need to grasp.

[00:06:17] How to, what are these gestures that I'm trying to communicate to these other musical creatures?

[00:06:23] And what am I trying to get across to them?

[00:06:25] That's one thing because it's a performance.

[00:06:27] But there's a whole other dimension to this, which we've discussed many times, Russell,

[00:06:31] which is the personal, the interpersonal.

[00:06:34] How do I persuade people in a rehearsal that the ideas that I'm trying to put before them are worthy of them considering?

[00:06:42] Because in many cases, the people that I'm conducting, certainly in the orchestra that I conduct,

[00:06:47] a fantastic little orchestra, Market Harbour orchestra, which again, there's an example.

[00:06:52] I just fell into that.

[00:06:53] I was asked by somebody, we formed this orchestra in Market Harbour.

[00:06:57] Six months in, we've lost our conductor.

[00:07:00] Would you like to do it?

[00:07:03] You never have that conversation with someone.

[00:07:05] It just so happened that 35 years earlier, I'd been in this symphony orchestra in Southampton,

[00:07:10] and Frankie, who's the flautist and the chairman of the orchestra, got in touch with me on Facebook.

[00:07:16] Power of digital connection.

[00:07:18] And so going back to all those years ago, I started Professor Peter Evans, his name, well, he started me off.

[00:07:25] And this is how you conduct, Stephen.

[00:07:27] And then I realized if I talked to other people, everybody who teaches conducting would teach in a completely different way.

[00:07:34] So I searched these people out.

[00:07:36] Then I went to Surrey University to do an M. Musk course in performance and conducting.

[00:07:43] And that's when my technique was completely ruined.

[00:07:47] I won't mention the name because it doesn't matter who the person was.

[00:07:52] I allowed it to happen.

[00:07:54] But it was a technical approach that just didn't suit me.

[00:07:58] It was very, let your arms be floaty, let yourself be this.

[00:08:02] And I realized that, no, what I need to do is be much more natural with myself.

[00:08:07] And I need to learn the technical aspects.

[00:08:10] Of course I do.

[00:08:11] But really what matters is understanding the music, a deep dive into understanding the original intentions of the composer in that score.

[00:08:20] That's why I like to get into our texts, which are really good these days.

[00:08:24] There's so much great musicological work being done on origins of scores.

[00:08:29] And so deep diving into scores, understand what does Brahms mean when he's written that?

[00:08:35] And did he write that in the original?

[00:08:38] Did he change it in any of the subsequent?

[00:08:40] You know what?

[00:08:41] Because it's, I suppose a lot of these musical thoughts, the Beethoven thoughts, it's, you know, it's 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.

[00:08:50] Whether that's Beethoven or not, I don't know.

[00:08:52] But it fits, doesn't it?

[00:08:53] And Brahms who kept changing and changing and there is no final status for some of these compositions, which I find also utterly bewildering and fascinating.

[00:09:03] You know, the fact that Brahms wrote the opening of his first symphony after he'd finished the Allegro.

[00:09:09] I can't get my head around that because it all seems so organic.

[00:09:12] And so it all makes sense.

[00:09:14] How did you have this idea after you had that idea?

[00:09:18] But that's interesting because that's something that happens in any form of creative writing as well.

[00:09:22] Sometimes you have to have the body before you understand the introduction.

[00:09:26] Well, look, you've given us a ton to go at, just to bring the story.

[00:09:29] Go on.

[00:09:30] No, no, no.

[00:09:31] I just want to go back in and pick a few things that you've said.

[00:09:33] So you're obviously conducting at the moment.

[00:09:35] For those that don't know, let's actually just start by asking the question, what is a conductor and what's the point of them?

[00:09:47] Yeah, it's an excellent question because there is a raging debate in some quarters about the value of a conductor.

[00:09:55] I would say a conductor is there to inspire and lead.

[00:10:00] And in that inspiration, we're trying, I say we.

[00:10:05] So let's talk about orchestra, for example.

[00:10:08] So I'll do orchestra.

[00:10:10] I'll do brass band.

[00:10:11] I'll do choirs.

[00:10:12] Those are the things I do mainly at the moment.

[00:10:15] Orchestra is fascinating because it's very disparate.

[00:10:20] String musicians, brass band musicians, woodwind musicians, occasional percussion.

[00:10:26] Those are very, it's like dog owners and their pets.

[00:10:30] I don't know how it comes to be that certain psyche types are attracted to string players.

[00:10:35] You know, did the viola make you who you are, Russell, or did you make the viola what it is?

[00:10:41] But it's interchangeable.

[00:10:43] It's part of the process.

[00:10:45] And so I might have 50 people in front of me.

[00:10:48] And who am I to suppose that I know any better than those, the people in front of me?

[00:10:54] But I have a job, which I've been given.

[00:10:56] And my job is to try to bring that music to life, to inspire them to play it in a way that I might have a vision in my mind,

[00:11:04] my musical mind, as to this is how I think this should go.

[00:11:08] So I'll give you an example.

[00:11:09] In January, I did Beethoven's Seventh Symphony, which you'll know very well, Russell.

[00:11:13] It's good stuff.

[00:11:14] So it is, for string players, it is utterly beguiling because it sits so.

[00:11:20] And there are certain things, you'll know this as a string.

[00:11:23] There are certain things, because it might say, last movement, Beethoven's Seventh.

[00:11:29] There's a tempo that that goes at, which, depending on the players you have in front of you,

[00:11:35] will be the natural place for that to arrive at.

[00:11:39] And that's just to do with biomechanics.

[00:11:44] It's just to do with the standard of musicians you have in front of you.

[00:11:48] And you can't be determined by that, by the wind players.

[00:11:51] You have to go, you know, I need to find where are my string players at?

[00:11:55] Where will they run?

[00:11:59] And it finds a place.

[00:12:01] And in doing that, you're inspiring people to also push their boundaries.

[00:12:06] Do they know where their place is on that, their musical place?

[00:12:10] And also things like the second movement, the slow movement.

[00:12:16] First time I started to play that, they all wanted to play it really like there was a Klemper.

[00:12:22] I stopped and said, stop.

[00:12:24] I said, stop.

[00:12:25] This isn't Klemper.

[00:12:26] It actually, if I remember correctly, it says Allegretto in this, which is actually...

[00:12:33] I said, it's a two-bar phrase.

[00:12:35] Let's just link them to...

[00:12:38] So you're trying to inspire...

[00:12:40] Because you can lose the dressing room really, really quickly.

[00:12:43] If you have somebody that goes, no, no.

[00:12:46] And I've had that in rehearsals.

[00:12:48] No.

[00:12:48] I think, oh, no.

[00:12:49] I pushed it too hard.

[00:12:50] I pushed it too...

[00:12:52] And then, of course, you have a choice.

[00:12:54] When somebody is...

[00:12:55] When you've offended somebody's musical sensibility, which is doable, very doable.

[00:13:01] You've got choices to make then.

[00:13:03] Do you double down and push on?

[00:13:04] In which case...

[00:13:05] Oh, that's difficult.

[00:13:06] That is...

[00:13:07] You can push on.

[00:13:09] That's one thing you can do.

[00:13:10] You could say effectively to somebody, you're confusing this with a discussion.

[00:13:15] That's high risk.

[00:13:16] You're in real high risk stakes there when you do that.

[00:13:20] I tend to do the fall on my sword at that point.

[00:13:26] I'm not...

[00:13:26] In my mind, I'm not actually falling on my sword.

[00:13:29] I'm using a technique, which is to say, I'm just going to...

[00:13:32] I'm going to play wounded dog here.

[00:13:34] I'm ever so sorry.

[00:13:36] Let me try to come at this from a different angle.

[00:13:39] Can I try to explain what I'm really thinking?

[00:13:41] And maybe I've been clumsy with my words and I've been a bit vulgar.

[00:13:44] Please accept my apologies.

[00:13:46] I'm just a simple Irishman or something like that.

[00:13:50] It always works.

[00:13:50] It always works.

[00:13:52] And to your question, there has to be somewhere in a performance a collective idea of what are we going to do with this music?

[00:14:03] What is the tempo, the speed, the velocity?

[00:14:08] Velocity being speed and direction.

[00:14:11] What are we trying to do with this thing?

[00:14:13] Where's the peak of that phrase?

[00:14:15] How are we getting to that climactic point?

[00:14:18] What is our start point and what's our end point?

[00:14:20] What's our middle point?

[00:14:21] How are we balancing?

[00:14:23] All of those things are often, not exclusively, but often best achieved by somebody who's a little bit remote from the action.

[00:14:32] When you're the knitting, as I call it, when you're playing violin and you're doing a lot of knitting, a lot of notes, it's very difficult to be the person that sees it from a distance.

[00:14:44] And the only thing I'd say as a conductor and musical director, and I've learned this over the years, something I said to you before, Russell, is now at the age of next week, I'm 61.

[00:14:54] And at the age of 61, I've realized it's not about me.

[00:15:00] I've taken the ego out of it.

[00:15:02] I am in service of those musicians.

[00:15:05] My job is to help them be the best they possibly can be.

[00:15:09] And in doing so, perhaps inspire them to see the music in a different way or to try and unlock something.

[00:15:18] You know, a number of times I've heard people say, oh, we know this.

[00:15:21] And I think, well, do you know this?

[00:15:25] Beethoven 7 is a really good example.

[00:15:27] Oh, we know this.

[00:15:28] Well, OK, tell me that you know it.

[00:15:30] That's fine.

[00:15:31] And so when they know it and they're playing, there's Beethoven 7 is hugely rhythmic, as you know, it's got it's basically an exercise in rhythmic vitality.

[00:15:41] And so much.

[00:15:42] And there's ways of doing those phrasing.

[00:15:46] And you can play that.

[00:15:49] You can play it like that, which is very vertical and in the moment.

[00:15:52] Or you can play it in a linear fashion.

[00:15:55] Give it a sense of driving direction, which I like to do that.

[00:16:03] Where is that going?

[00:16:04] Going somewhere.

[00:16:05] Going somewhere.

[00:16:07] And those little micro interventions, you can do macro interventions as well.

[00:16:13] That's the job of a conductor and musical director is to try to.

[00:16:17] How do we take it from where you are now to perhaps a vision up here?

[00:16:22] Then you have to inspire people in rehearsal to believe that your view of your your view of is worse than people.

[00:16:30] OK, I'll go with that.

[00:16:32] Steve makes sense there.

[00:16:34] Also, I tend to position my role as being one of collective.

[00:16:40] So when I'm if I have to stop on orchestra and that's a conscious decision, do I want to stop them right now?

[00:16:49] So I have a rule of five, which is I'm collecting in my mind five things I want to go back and discuss and rehearse or have comments about.

[00:17:00] So I keep going until I get my five.

[00:17:02] Then I get to a point.

[00:17:03] I stop because otherwise you could be randomly stopping.

[00:17:07] Another point saying and say nothing of much value.

[00:17:12] Let me leap in.

[00:17:13] Let me leap in.

[00:17:14] Again, you've got me a thousand things to go at.

[00:17:16] So it's it's interesting because I was thinking about the role of conductor as you were talking there.

[00:17:20] And if you go back to maybe the earliest times, we've got continual players, Baroque music, where the continual players used to wear these all around or something.

[00:17:28] Or the violinist used to wear the bow around.

[00:17:32] And it's a far cry from there to today.

[00:17:35] And that's interesting.

[00:17:36] You talk about that distance, you know, that that that not being in the knitting, not being in the trenches.

[00:17:41] Because, of course, those musicians were.

[00:17:43] But then there were smaller groups, I suppose.

[00:17:45] So it's interesting because I'm sort of as you were chatting.

[00:17:47] I was drawing a diagram of the sort of various sort of parties here because you've got the conductor.

[00:17:53] You've got the composer, because one of the things we need to talk about is, you know, are you inflicting the conductor's view or are you serving the conductor?

[00:18:01] And that's sort of the composer in this thing.

[00:18:03] Yeah.

[00:18:03] But what you've added in here is the sort of relative level of the musicians as well.

[00:18:08] And I guess the fourth thing is the audience.

[00:18:10] And we'll come to them later.

[00:18:10] Yeah.

[00:18:11] They're the people that just play.

[00:18:13] So what's interesting, because you seem to be implying, and forgive me if I'm wrong here, that actually there is a sort of those, the conductor, the composer and the musician is almost a tradeoff.

[00:18:24] Or not tradeoff.

[00:18:26] Maybe there's a consideration between those three entities.

[00:18:29] So I'm guessing if you're working with an amateur group versus the Philharmonia, you know, what's available to you, what's possible to you is completely different.

[00:18:40] If you're working with a brass band of kids or you're dealing with an amateur choir, you're always having – so that's interesting you talk about that feature and something we forget, isn't it?

[00:18:50] Because you might have a very strong view of what a piece should be like or what you think the interpretation is from what the composer originally intended.

[00:18:58] But it's just not achievable with the forces that you have in front of you.

[00:19:01] So how do you make that judgment about the level of – because there's a level of passion, as we know from leadership work and organizations, there's a level of passion, there's a level of skill.

[00:19:11] And actually, you have to sort of sift those two things out.

[00:19:13] So how do you make those judgments when you're rehearsing?

[00:19:16] I mean, it's fascinating.

[00:19:17] You, as I knew you would, Russell, would throw up a multitude of thoughts in return.

[00:19:24] We need to come back to, if you don't mind, parking up the original score, the composer, the conductor and the musicians because I've done some work on this.

[00:19:35] And actually, one of the ways I've done that work is playing to people the same music being played by different orchestras but conducted by the same conductor.

[00:19:49] And then to listen to the results and ask yourself, well, what are you hearing that's different there?

[00:19:52] And it's absolutely fascinating.

[00:19:56] But I think you're right.

[00:19:57] There's no absolutes in music.

[00:19:59] I think that's the thing is I have this phrase, which I think it's a Greek philosopher, Heracles, who said you can never step in the same river twice.

[00:20:08] And that does work.

[00:20:09] You can have the same orchestra, same music, same conductor, but we can't perform this music again because we did it last night and we've all changed.

[00:20:17] And the world has moved on.

[00:20:19] So I think it's an utter conceit for me to stand up in front of any group and think I can pull them, push them, cajole them to a predetermined view that I've got of how this should go.

[00:20:32] Because in doing so, I'm completely ignoring that one of those dimensions you've given there, which is the level of the musicians around me.

[00:20:40] One thing.

[00:20:42] The time we've got available, that's so critical.

[00:20:45] The time we've got available is so influential on the final outcome.

[00:20:53] Because, you know, if I've got a week to prepare for something, that's a world of a difference to I've got three rehearsals in two hours each.

[00:21:02] Well, I've got to make some decisions here.

[00:21:03] What am I going to include?

[00:21:05] What am I going to exclude?

[00:21:06] What are my musicians able to do between rehearsals, which I can't really.

[00:21:11] I might encourage them.

[00:21:13] My male voice choir say, I expect you to do 20 minutes a day and some of them laugh and some of them do an hour.

[00:21:19] Some of them do take it very seriously.

[00:21:21] But in, you know, do they do this?

[00:21:25] Will they put the work in?

[00:21:26] Many will.

[00:21:27] Many won't.

[00:21:28] Many rely on the rehearsal itself as the place of improvement.

[00:21:32] And I think our jobs, whether you're the CEO of an organization or whether you're the conductor of an orchestra, is to try to assess these multi-layered areas and make some really rapid decisions.

[00:21:46] I'll give you another example.

[00:21:48] And I'm lucky enough to be the resident musical director of what's called Youth Brass 2000.

[00:21:54] Now, Youth Brass 2000 are one of the finest youth brass bands in the country.

[00:22:01] They've won the national championships 10 years in a row.

[00:22:06] With the exception of this year.

[00:22:07] So they were second, second this year.

[00:22:10] But, you know, that's actually a good thing because sometimes to be the best in the country for 10 years in a row, we were having the conversation myself and the artistic director, Chris Jeans, who's an utterly outstanding trombonist and musician and dear friend.

[00:22:27] And he was saying the bubble has to burst at some point because everybody wants a slice of your pie.

[00:22:33] Here's my point with this is when you're dealing with talented, super talented, but young kids, you know, they respond to me completely differently than an adult orchestra.

[00:22:47] And I find it very disarming how they look because I'm not somebody that they don't get my jokes to begin with.

[00:22:54] They literally don't find me funny.

[00:22:55] I find me hilarious.

[00:22:59] And I crack one of my jokes and I think I've got nothing.

[00:23:03] They just completely po-faced.

[00:23:05] Granddad's telling jokes.

[00:23:07] Who is that old bloke telling jokes?

[00:23:10] And I realized, eventually I realized, they just, it's a bit like how I used to see teachers at school.

[00:23:17] They're not the same.

[00:23:19] They're not humans like we were humans.

[00:23:23] And so that's an example of how I have to, I don't modify my style particularly.

[00:23:27] But actually, that's an example of where I have to be very careful that I'm not responding to them in the way I would expect myself to respond.

[00:23:36] Because if I tell a joke to an orchestra, it's an orchestral joke.

[00:23:39] And there's always somebody who thinks that's hilarious.

[00:23:42] Yeah.

[00:23:42] And I started telling jokes to these young kids.

[00:23:45] I wasn't, and I started feeling vulnerable.

[00:23:48] Yeah.

[00:23:49] Strange, isn't it?

[00:23:50] Very strange.

[00:23:50] But that's fascinating, isn't it?

[00:23:51] Because I'm desperate for a joke now, clearly, because I am a person.

[00:23:57] It's a viola joke.

[00:23:58] Not a viola joke.

[00:24:01] It's the old, what's the difference between a viola and a double bass, isn't it?

[00:24:04] One burns longer or something.

[00:24:05] One burns longer, yeah.

[00:24:09] So going back.

[00:24:10] So, sorry, I got myself distracted.

[00:24:11] I tell you what was interesting though.

[00:24:13] You've used this phrase, and I mean, you mentioned it to me before we started, so it's obviously in your head.

[00:24:17] But you mentioned the phrase biomechanics a few times.

[00:24:20] So I wonder if we can just slightly change direction then.

[00:24:25] I wonder if we can talk about the biomechanics of conducting.

[00:24:27] Because actually, it's quite a fascinating thing.

[00:24:31] So if you're a runner, you've got shoes.

[00:24:33] I'm guessing if you're a conductor, what you wear, even on your feet and on your body and what you're waving around, is actually quite interesting.

[00:24:41] I remember I had some conduct lessons myself with someone down the house.

[00:24:46] I really enjoyed them, but I dislocated my elbow and I was never able to hold a baton after that.

[00:24:52] Oh, okay.

[00:24:53] And it's really interesting because it sort of slightly changed the shape of my arm.

[00:24:58] Yes.

[00:24:58] So I just wondered how you actually think about the biomechanics around conducting, being able to even just physically stand up for an hour and a half.

[00:25:07] Yes.

[00:25:09] Well, there's a lot on this.

[00:25:11] I think this is a fascinating subject because it's about how we relate to our own bodies.

[00:25:16] And then, as we talked about earlier, what am I trying to communicate and how am I trying to communicate it?

[00:25:21] But could I start this conversation, fascinating conversation, by the way, on biomechanics conducting with an accident that happened to me in the middle of a symphony?

[00:25:31] It was, I'll remember the symphony in a minute, American female composer Amy, oh, I've forgotten her second name.

[00:25:41] Oh, forget it.

[00:25:42] People listening to this will be screaming at your podcast.

[00:25:45] But we were in the last...

[00:25:47] Good, keep going, it'll come to mind.

[00:25:51] In the last movement.

[00:25:53] And conducting away.

[00:25:55] It was a warm night, very warm night, sweaty.

[00:25:58] Amy Beach.

[00:25:59] Amy Beach, that's right.

[00:26:00] Amy Beach.

[00:26:01] Forgive me, people who were listening.

[00:26:02] I did know that, but just couldn't remember.

[00:26:06] Doing one of her symphony, Gaelic symphony.

[00:26:10] Last movement.

[00:26:11] And Amy Beach is a very, very fine composer.

[00:26:14] Actually, some outstanding work going on.

[00:26:17] There's a lot of rediscovery of women composers actually going on at the moment.

[00:26:21] Another conversation.

[00:26:23] But I'll get to this last movement.

[00:26:24] At one point in this conversation, I do an enormous upbeat for enormous upbeat reasons.

[00:26:31] And the baton flies out of my hand and lands somewhere in the middle of the audience.

[00:26:37] But we're going at high speed here.

[00:26:39] This is...

[00:26:40] And I'm about to...

[00:26:41] We're about to get to a corner and change direction.

[00:26:43] What am I supposed to do?

[00:26:45] I've realized, I'm just going to carry on.

[00:26:48] In that instant, I had to change my biomechanics.

[00:26:53] And was there a problem?

[00:26:54] No.

[00:26:55] In the service of the music, we've got a job to do.

[00:26:58] And I carried on the rest of that in completely different gesture mode without a baton, just using my fingers.

[00:27:05] And in that moment, I had a life lesson right there, which is always keep your mind open to the possibilities that there is a different way to do things.

[00:27:13] Yeah.

[00:27:15] Until something comes...

[00:27:16] Because we are quite used to, this is how it goes.

[00:27:20] This is what you do.

[00:27:22] And that's a pattern.

[00:27:23] We like that.

[00:27:24] It's safe, isn't it?

[00:27:24] Comfortable.

[00:27:25] Good place to be in my comfort zone.

[00:27:27] But I realized in that moment, that's only a few years ago.

[00:27:30] So, you know, you are still...

[00:27:32] There's a lifelong learning thing in here.

[00:27:34] And if I might observe, there are some international outstanding, open brackets, debatable, closed brackets, conductors.

[00:27:43] Who...

[00:27:45] And I'll give you one example.

[00:27:47] And people listening who know this will go, yes, yes, he's very, very...

[00:27:51] Valery Gergiev, these days, conducts with a toothpick.

[00:27:55] Yeah.

[00:27:57] Or conducts with no baton at all.

[00:28:00] And what that tells me is that you don't need a baton.

[00:28:03] In fact, I'm pretty sure I could conduct almost anything without a baton.

[00:28:08] I don't have to.

[00:28:10] You have to change your biomechanics.

[00:28:12] You have to change your gestures.

[00:28:14] But to your question, biomechanics, the easiest way to understand how complex biomechanics can be is just understand the positioning of a violin, viola player.

[00:28:25] And you put this instrument under your chin.

[00:28:29] And then you put your arm in the most, what seems like a contorted, underneath the instrument, right round.

[00:28:36] And you put your thumb on.

[00:28:38] And then the other arm takes a bow to it.

[00:28:40] And somehow you're supposed to make this work.

[00:28:43] It's the most extraordinary, complicated, biomechanical body and mechanics conflation.

[00:28:53] So it's the same with conducting.

[00:28:56] Although incidentally, you mentioned standing up for an hour and a half.

[00:28:58] I've learned now to bring my own stool to rehearsal so I can sit on it.

[00:29:02] Because I'm thinking, why am I wasting my own energy in a rehearsal, especially on the day of performance?

[00:29:10] And I really need my energy to be 100% no exceptions at 7.30 tonight.

[00:29:15] Not burning my energy in rehearsal.

[00:29:18] When everybody else is sitting down.

[00:29:19] I think what I've realized is that you can do a lot of work yourself on your biomechanics to understand.

[00:29:25] And this is where a mirror comes in handy.

[00:29:28] Stephen, don't be so conceited that you think you know that gesture is communicating what you think it's communicating to your players.

[00:29:37] Because, and I'm doing this all the time, Russell.

[00:29:40] I'm thinking, they're not playing that the way I want them to play it.

[00:29:44] Is it me?

[00:29:46] Have I failed them?

[00:29:48] You know?

[00:29:49] In some way, do I need to change?

[00:29:52] Because this might seem terribly egocentric, but the way musicians can get absolutely conditioned to watching a conductor.

[00:30:05] We talked earlier on about my daughter who plays in the Aurora Orchestra, which is a, it's not a conductorless orchestra, actually.

[00:30:13] It's just they don't play with music, with dots and dashes in front of them.

[00:30:16] But that's a level of conditioning that they've removed from themselves, not looking at the dots and dashes.

[00:30:22] And it just changes the dynamic.

[00:30:25] It changes how they interact, how they relate to the music.

[00:30:30] And it's the same with the conductor.

[00:30:32] If my gestures change, and I've noticed this, and it is extraordinary.

[00:30:38] The way you encourage people to play, especially string players, if you give a gesture which is overly, let me say, violent for the want of a...

[00:30:46] You'll get a violent attack on that music.

[00:30:49] Because somehow that energy, that electricity, even if it's a few percentage points, turns up in the bow of that player.

[00:31:00] And it turns up in the music.

[00:31:01] If you want people to be overly, overly gentle, do very, very little and get out of their way.

[00:31:09] I can't, especially with, especially with string players, I'm constantly trying to, how do I get out of their way?

[00:31:17] And also, I learned so much in the last 10 years from working with really good musicians.

[00:31:25] What is it that they need from me in order that they can do the best job they can do?

[00:31:30] And I had a comment from a leader, which was really interesting.

[00:31:33] And sometimes you have to make decisions about, do I conduct this in one?

[00:31:38] Do I conduct it in three?

[00:31:40] I made a classic.

[00:31:42] It was a mistake.

[00:31:44] I was conducting it in a version of three.

[00:31:46] But it was a bam, bam, bam.

[00:31:48] People listening can't see.

[00:31:50] I've just been doing a gesture to Russell.

[00:31:52] But it's a, I was trying a one, but it was a one subdivided.

[00:31:56] And the leader came up to me and thankfully he didn't say it in the middle of the rehearsal because that's also tricky.

[00:32:05] Could you do that in one?

[00:32:07] Because then you feel very, it's tricky.

[00:32:12] Just tricky.

[00:32:12] But he said, try it in one.

[00:32:14] He said, I need to know when the bar line's coming.

[00:32:16] And I thought, that's a really interesting way of putting it.

[00:32:19] So I tried it in one.

[00:32:20] And the whole thing changed immediately for everybody.

[00:32:24] And I thought, well, that's fascinating.

[00:32:26] And that was about biomechanics.

[00:32:27] It was about musical decisions.

[00:32:29] It's about me realizing you have to be humble enough to make a mistake and learn from it and move on.

[00:32:37] You're not perfect.

[00:32:38] I don't think anybody.

[00:32:40] And when you make a mistake as a musician or as a conductor, I just play it down and I go, oh, sorry for that.

[00:32:46] That's me.

[00:32:46] And even if it's the orchestra makes a mistake, I'll take it on and say, that was me.

[00:32:50] Because it doesn't matter.

[00:32:52] It's not about who's better than anybody.

[00:32:55] We're all in the service of the music here.

[00:32:57] And you mentioned our paying customers.

[00:33:00] I see our job at the end of the day, partly, not exclusively.

[00:33:05] I want the musicians to have a thrilling time.

[00:33:08] I want them to be moved as human beings in their job as playing.

[00:33:12] But I want the audience to be moved as human beings as well.

[00:33:15] It's the point.

[00:33:16] It is the point.

[00:33:17] I do find I tend to talk to audiences.

[00:33:21] And it's not common for conductors to do that.

[00:33:23] But I will start, I often start a concert by talking to the audience.

[00:33:29] And in a few occasions, the orchestra allows me to do a little, we did Shostakovich 9 recently, which is very, it's not, it's not a popular is the wrong word.

[00:33:43] It's not as played as the other Shostakovich symphonies, the big ones, the number five, number 10, number seven, number eight, 15.

[00:33:53] 9 is very different.

[00:33:57] It's quite classical in many ways.

[00:33:58] And it takes some explaining because it's also a little piece of theatre.

[00:34:04] There's a lot of Shostakovich nose-thummery to the establishment going on in there.

[00:34:09] And I was given the opportunity to, and I stole this idea from the Aurora Orchestra, actually, because they did it in a concert I went to see.

[00:34:17] And I thought, I'm going to do that, which was to do little excerpts, little excerpts.

[00:34:22] Here's this.

[00:34:22] Here's the bassoon solo at the start of that movement.

[00:34:25] And let me just explain this.

[00:34:26] Here's what I think is going on here.

[00:34:28] And that engagement, I want people in the audience to be there.

[00:34:35] Come on, please leave your credit cards, leave your gas bill, leave your relationship crisis at home.

[00:34:42] Please be here and come with us on this journey.

[00:34:45] We're doing all the knitting up at the front, but I want you to be in the middle of this orchestra.

[00:34:49] I really want you to breathe with us, come with us on this journey.

[00:34:52] And I hope this musical experience we're about to create for you speaks to you.

[00:34:58] Because so often in life, we're not, we're just, we're going along and we're doing our stuff.

[00:35:04] Music has the ability to be utterly transformational if we let it.

[00:35:10] So leaping in again for a second, because it's really quite fascinating what you're saying there.

[00:35:15] Because this is the interesting thing about the popularity of what we might describe as serious classical music is supposed to be on the way.

[00:35:23] Okay.

[00:35:23] And I've always thought the format itself is slightly part of the problem.

[00:35:27] Because basically you're sort of served up this thing and you sit there and you sort of think, well, that's lovely, but so what?

[00:35:37] And I always think, as you've said, I think the audience is part of the performance.

[00:35:43] Because actually, you know when there's a live audience in.

[00:35:46] You know when the audience is a bit fed up and you know when they'd rather be knitting themselves.

[00:35:50] But I always think that this is what you're describing here quite eloquently, is the internal dialogue, those narratives, those pieces of communication that's going on between the conductor and the orchestra.

[00:35:59] And the point of that is to communicate the music with the audience.

[00:36:03] And I love the idea of talking to the audience because I think the format is too one-sided.

[00:36:08] And I think what we have to do with communication is you have to create access points, don't you?

[00:36:12] So people go, ah, yes.

[00:36:13] Oh, this.

[00:36:14] Oh, yeah, I get that.

[00:36:15] Oh, right.

[00:36:16] I'm now going with you.

[00:36:18] And now we're on the same journey.

[00:36:20] Now, whether that happens, you know, is the music club.

[00:36:24] This is what American orchestras do, don't they?

[00:36:25] They have music clubs beforehand and half the audience goes in and listens to someone talking about the music.

[00:36:31] You know, there'll be two or three of the musicians sitting there talking about what it's like to play it and how it works.

[00:36:37] And those people are massive.

[00:36:38] You just have to watch them afterwards.

[00:36:39] They're massively engaged with the performance.

[00:36:41] And you watch other people who are literally just sitting there and just wonder.

[00:36:45] And some people still go to concerts, I think, just to be seen there.

[00:36:48] But in different sizes, particularly in America.

[00:36:51] But I'm sure you played in China as well.

[00:36:54] The vibe in China is totally different when you have an orchestra.

[00:36:57] But I'm just wondering, I mean, part of the problem is the format.

[00:37:01] I like the fact that you're talking to her.

[00:37:02] I mean, how else can we get this format to become more dynamic?

[00:37:07] How do we engage with new audiences?

[00:37:11] And I know this is a massive question and some of it's marketing.

[00:37:14] But it's so important.

[00:37:15] I think there are generations.

[00:37:18] I say this because it takes a fresh mind.

[00:37:21] And I'm going to say the generational difference here comes into play because sometimes we older generation get stuck in our ways.

[00:37:33] And this is the way you do it.

[00:37:35] And it takes a fresh approach.

[00:37:36] So I mentioned earlier on this Aurora Orchestra, which people listening, if you haven't checked them out, please check them out.

[00:37:43] Just check them out.

[00:37:47] Because there are, and sometimes we'll go to it with a preconception.

[00:37:53] Oh, why would you do that?

[00:37:55] Why would you learn Rite of Spring and play it from memory when it's one of the toughest pieces?

[00:38:00] Well, it's not anymore.

[00:38:01] But it still is hugely challenging in so many ways.

[00:38:07] But to learn it and perform it from memory is an extraordinary feat.

[00:38:13] In and of itself.

[00:38:14] But if I tell you this, Russell, and people listening will go, what?

[00:38:19] But what I'm going to tell you is about the almost naivety of youth here.

[00:38:25] Because sometimes our younger generation don't know what they should be scared of.

[00:38:31] And so my youngest daughter, Hannah, plays in the Aurora Orchestra.

[00:38:36] And she got the call to say, right, you're up.

[00:38:39] You're in for the Rite of Spring.

[00:38:40] You need to come to a rehearsal.

[00:38:42] It's next week.

[00:38:44] And you've got seven days.

[00:38:47] Let me just unpack what I've just said for people who are listening.

[00:38:50] You've got seven days to memorize the Rite of Spring.

[00:38:55] And she said, I didn't have seven days.

[00:38:57] I was doing other things.

[00:38:58] I had Sunday.

[00:39:02] And I can't even begin to process what I've even just said to you there.

[00:39:08] Is that Hannah learned it on the Sunday.

[00:39:12] And of course, it wasn't perfect.

[00:39:14] And she went along.

[00:39:15] And they're very, very understanding.

[00:39:16] And they say, you can play with music for a while until you're ready.

[00:39:19] But please understand when we get to performance, there's no music.

[00:39:24] And not everybody makes the end of that journey in that process.

[00:39:27] Yes.

[00:39:28] And one might say, that is brutal.

[00:39:31] How is that musical?

[00:39:33] How is that?

[00:39:33] Well, if I say to you, when I went to see them play the Rite of Spring, it was two things.

[00:39:43] One is they're educational and they broke the piece down.

[00:39:46] And they were, this comes to your thing about format, is they made a point of educating the orchestra about this piece and its origins and Stravinsky's way of writing it.

[00:39:58] And he took himself away and he was up in the mountains and he was bashing away on his piano and da, da, da, da, da.

[00:40:03] And creating these chord structures.

[00:40:06] Does this work?

[00:40:07] Does that thing?

[00:40:09] All of that.

[00:40:13] But then they were about deconstructing the music.

[00:40:16] And this is what's going on here.

[00:40:17] This is what's going on here.

[00:40:18] And these four layers of rhythmic complexity.

[00:40:21] And the orchestra were playing these individual bits to the audience.

[00:40:26] Now, I've known the Rite of Spring for 50 odd years.

[00:40:30] And I've studied it quite a bit.

[00:40:32] But in that moment, I was learning hugely.

[00:40:36] Because with AI, we could come to AI.

[00:40:39] You know, with advances in technology these days, you can deconstruct some of this music really, really quickly.

[00:40:45] And it simplifies what might seem at the surface a complex piece of music.

[00:40:51] But it simplifies it.

[00:40:53] And I think to your point about how do you reinvent this stuff, there are minds out there now.

[00:41:00] They tend to be younger.

[00:41:02] Not exclusively.

[00:41:02] But they tend to be younger minds who are more into the digital age, more into finding creative angles, more into technology and bringing lighting and dancing and other genres.

[00:41:14] Which in many ways is going back.

[00:41:16] Yes.

[00:41:17] It's going back.

[00:41:18] You know.

[00:41:19] That's as good as he has.

[00:41:19] Yeah.

[00:41:21] In my university days, I wrote a dissertation on the subject of defining a method.

[00:41:28] In Alexander Scriabin, who is a Russian composer.

[00:41:32] And quite an impressive, superly impressive, if not a little bit cranky Russian composer.

[00:41:41] And he created this piece of music, which was to be his masterpiece.

[00:41:47] I don't think it was ever performed in his lifetime.

[00:41:48] But it was a fusion of orchestra, of dance, of light, of a keyboard that had yet to be invented.

[00:41:59] And the keyboard that had yet to be invented was to be one that would create colors and project on screens and all these.

[00:42:07] And he said, this was, I'll get the date wrong, but I think it was something like either 1908 or 1911, 13, somewhere.

[00:42:15] Similar time to Rite of Spring, actually.

[00:42:17] Yeah.

[00:42:18] And he was creating all of these ideas for things that had yet to be invented.

[00:42:23] Yeah.

[00:42:24] And it sounds terribly modernistic, doesn't it, what I've just described?

[00:42:27] It's 120 years ago.

[00:42:29] Yeah, it's recycling.

[00:42:31] So what's happening now is that I think there's a lot of fresh minds, some of them are young, some of them are, but who are in the creative industry.

[00:42:40] And, oh my goodness, if ever there was a chance to create an utterly immersive experience, which would move people.

[00:42:47] But, you know, just talking to you now is making me think, how can I create an experience that starts from the moment the audience walk into the concert hall?

[00:42:57] Like Secret Cinema.

[00:42:59] Yeah, yeah, yes.

[00:43:01] Why can't it be, we go in completely dark.

[00:43:05] Let's go dark.

[00:43:07] Why can't it be that as the moment the audience walk in, the experience starts right there with lighting.

[00:43:14] Now, it's going to push people right out of their comfort zone.

[00:43:20] But Russell, you and I both know that that's a very good thing.

[00:43:25] But the other thing, Stephen, is I also wonder about the format of, how can I put this?

[00:43:33] As you know, I was in a West End show many years ago.

[00:43:35] That was three and a half hours of torture, which we memorised by the second thing.

[00:43:39] But, and it does make me laugh when you have some of the highfalutin musicians in Central Yorkers saying, oh, we had a long gig tonight.

[00:43:48] It was all of an hour and a half, dude, in the interval.

[00:43:51] And I do think, and if I go, you know, I went recently to see a Hans Zimmer music thing.

[00:43:58] Hacked.

[00:43:59] You know, hacked with all sorts of images.

[00:44:01] That's immersive, isn't it?

[00:44:02] Again, two and a half, three hours.

[00:44:03] And I just wonder whether we've lost the plot on, you know, the overture concerto symphony thing.

[00:44:09] And I've, you know, I've talked to a lot of people about doing different sorts of programming.

[00:44:14] And one person said, well, that would be too long.

[00:44:16] That would be nearly two hours.

[00:44:18] And I think, and your point is, you know, you've got people who are locked in this mode.

[00:44:21] But why don't we have thematic programming?

[00:44:24] Why do, and we often have a concerto to get people to bonsai seats, and I get that.

[00:44:28] But we don't, I don't think we think, I remember years ago, the National Youth Orchestra,

[00:44:32] we did, we did a programme and had no concerto in.

[00:44:35] It was, I think it was quite ahead of its time.

[00:44:37] And it had, I'm sure it had the Bartok dance suite.

[00:44:41] It started with that, which is a four movement thing.

[00:44:44] I know it had the Rhapsody of Spaniel in at the end.

[00:44:46] It had, I think it had Haryanos in it.

[00:44:49] Okay.

[00:44:50] And there was something else, and I can't remember what that is.

[00:44:52] But it was, in all my, all my days of playing, I never played quite such an interesting concert.

[00:44:57] And we did it as a prom.

[00:44:59] And of course, being in a youth orchestra, you don't need to have a celebrated soloist coming in,

[00:45:03] because actually the house is going to be full.

[00:45:06] And I always thought to myself, why don't we think differently about programming?

[00:45:09] Why don't we think, you know, and I've seen attempts made to do this,

[00:45:13] but why don't we have a thematic idea?

[00:45:16] Why don't we explain it?

[00:45:17] Why don't we have everybody sitting in the darkness?

[00:45:19] Why don't we have lighting?

[00:45:21] Why don't we?

[00:45:21] And I know people have tried it.

[00:45:22] And normally when it's been tried, it's usually been successful.

[00:45:25] But for some reason, we then default back.

[00:45:28] And maybe this is because the big symphony of wishes just don't have time.

[00:45:32] And they possibly don't have money.

[00:45:35] Yeah.

[00:45:36] But I think there is no doubt that here in this moment, we're reflecting a need.

[00:45:42] And there will be people out there who are doing exactly what we're describing and trying to push these boundaries.

[00:45:49] Because if you're going to bring in new engagement into this, we're talking largely classical music here, aren't we?

[00:45:57] It doesn't have to be.

[00:45:58] But any genre which is, let's call it, specialized like this.

[00:46:05] Choral music is the same thing.

[00:46:07] It's going to need new people to come along.

[00:46:10] Now, what we do get with youth, and you mentioned the youth orchestra there,

[00:46:14] is you will have gone to National Youth Orchestra,

[00:46:17] and you will have thought nothing of spending an entire week going on a residential

[00:46:22] and playing things almost to their death.

[00:46:27] You think, well, why are we rehearsing this bar for 15 minutes?

[00:46:32] But I bet at no point did anybody pipe up and go, why are we doing this?

[00:46:39] You just went along with it.

[00:46:41] And it's the same with that youth brass band I'm talking to about.

[00:46:44] Also, might I say, in my other world, Choral, we've just done a program.

[00:46:50] In fact, I've got a rehearsal with them tonight.

[00:46:52] This is a Wednesday for those people who are, this is a different day.

[00:46:57] I'm doing a choral thing with 48 men who have chosen to join a 10-week program,

[00:47:04] Zero to Choir, in a male voice choir.

[00:47:07] And if I tell you that in this 10-week program, I'm teaching them 10 new songs,

[00:47:16] some of which are quite difficult, but they don't know that they're difficult.

[00:47:21] They also don't know that it can't be done.

[00:47:24] They also don't know that they can't learn to sing.

[00:47:28] Apparently, they can't learn to sing in 10 weeks, Russell.

[00:47:31] There's so many things that they don't know that they can't do.

[00:47:33] Yeah, great.

[00:47:35] Yeah, there they are.

[00:47:37] I do apologize.

[00:47:38] I'm having an incoming call.

[00:47:39] I just have to learn how to get rid of it.

[00:47:41] Don't touch it.

[00:47:42] Don't, right.

[00:47:43] I won't touch it.

[00:47:45] Apologies.

[00:47:45] Send a voicemail.

[00:47:46] There's a button.

[00:47:47] Send a voicemail.

[00:47:49] I hope I didn't cut you off.

[00:47:50] I didn't cut you off.

[00:47:51] Goodness, thank you.

[00:47:53] So my point to that is, sometimes fresh minds are the best minds.

[00:47:58] Because they don't, it's the same in a corporation.

[00:48:00] You and I are both not.

[00:48:01] New starts, inductees, people coming along.

[00:48:04] They don't know that this can't be done yet.

[00:48:08] Yes.

[00:48:08] You know, you've hit on something really important here.

[00:48:11] And I think this is understated.

[00:48:12] Phil Darcy, who is one of my guests, was talking about youth initiatives.

[00:48:16] Youth initiatives.

[00:48:19] And it's always struck me.

[00:48:21] Longevity of musicians, particularly conductors, composers, such like.

[00:48:26] You talk about musicians and their neuroplasticity.

[00:48:29] You talk about the positive.

[00:48:30] I mean, there are always exceptions to this, and I understand this.

[00:48:33] But music is so good for you cognitively, isn't it?

[00:48:36] It is.

[00:48:36] It is.

[00:48:38] I mean, dance as well.

[00:48:40] All of the performing arts are actually.

[00:48:42] You know, if we were.

[00:48:43] If on the National Health Service, you could actually prescribe going and joining a rock quiet for eight weeks.

[00:48:49] It would have a massive positive effect on your mental health.

[00:48:53] And I just wondered if you're thinking about this, because you must see, as a conductor, all those different biomechanical movements.

[00:49:02] You know, interacting with all these different people.

[00:49:04] Sensing.

[00:49:06] Yes.

[00:49:06] Thinking.

[00:49:08] Intuitive.

[00:49:09] I can't think of the word intuition.

[00:49:11] But you know what I said.

[00:49:13] Yeah.

[00:49:15] Well, look.

[00:49:16] I'll give you an example.

[00:49:18] It's a parallel.

[00:49:18] I know you asked me a question.

[00:49:19] I go off on left field.

[00:49:20] But it does make some sense.

[00:49:23] I did a concert recently.

[00:49:25] It was part of a five choir concert.

[00:49:27] There was five choirs singing five genres.

[00:49:32] We did it in the Dern Gate in Northampton.

[00:49:33] And the concert was called Collide, Collision.

[00:49:36] And it was actually quite creative.

[00:49:39] And I met a guy there, Gareth Fuller, who is now just, I just love that fella.

[00:49:45] And Gareth and I collaborated on various things.

[00:49:49] But my point is, I'm sitting on this stage.

[00:49:51] All of the choirs were on stage and their musical directors were at the front in the middle of each choir.

[00:49:55] They sang these songs.

[00:49:58] And positioned in front of me was this gospel choir, which was put together for the purposes of that particular concert.

[00:50:06] There were only about 12, maybe 14 people in this choir.

[00:50:09] And they had gone from zero to gospel choir in a couple of weeks.

[00:50:14] They sung in other gospels and gospel choir.

[00:50:16] And I had very little understanding of the gospel.

[00:50:20] Let me call it a genre.

[00:50:21] It's more than a genre, as we know.

[00:50:24] And then we had this lady come along the night before this concert.

[00:50:28] But to some of your people listening, they will know this name.

[00:50:32] I hadn't met her before, but Karen Gibson.

[00:50:35] And Karen Gibson, OBE, is the lady whose choir sang at the Royal Wedding, the Harry and Meghan wedding.

[00:50:43] And she is formidable is too small a word for her.

[00:50:49] She came along and she started out on the Friday night.

[00:50:53] This is 200 voices, five choirs, 200 voices.

[00:50:56] And she was teaching us two songs that we were going to be performing on stage on the Saturday night.

[00:51:03] And first of all, I start with, this is a ridiculous idea.

[00:51:06] This is no, give me the music, give me the music.

[00:51:10] And of course, Karen starts by saying gospel is an oral tradition.

[00:51:14] There isn't any music.

[00:51:16] And I'm so out of my comfort zone here.

[00:51:19] And she's going, sing this like this.

[00:51:20] Tell me what the notes are.

[00:51:22] Tell me what the rhythm is.

[00:51:23] Because I'm conditioned to read music and know what it is and then find the musical expression.

[00:51:29] But in gospel, it's completely different.

[00:51:32] First of all, it's connected to faith, which is something that's missing in performing.

[00:51:38] And the faith of Beethoven's symphony is a different kind of faith, isn't it?

[00:51:43] So back to that point about I'm sitting on stage in the performance night.

[00:51:48] And this little choir, the Collide Gospel Choir, is performing in front of me its own stuff.

[00:51:54] Now, if I could show you, Russell, the faces.

[00:51:59] I'm only 10 feet away from them.

[00:52:02] So it's a real, I mean, you're looking into people's souls.

[00:52:08] What they were giving of themselves to that performance taught me an enormous lesson.

[00:52:16] And the lesson is this, is that we all have something we can give, which is more than what we actually do give.

[00:52:25] Because in that moment, I was seeing people putting everything on the line.

[00:52:32] Everything on the line.

[00:52:35] Their heart, their soul, their everything was on the line.

[00:52:39] And at the end, the conductor's name was Donna.

[00:52:41] And Donna, in the previous two rehearsals, was a little demure Minnie Mouse.

[00:52:49] The Donna that turned up on stage in her silver stiletto high heels and just became a musical, faith-based creature of spiritual electricity,

[00:53:06] was transformative.

[00:53:08] And I was mesmerized.

[00:53:10] And at the end of it, here's the thing that I wasn't expecting.

[00:53:15] The thing that was, at the end of the performance, she looked up, I'm getting emotional.

[00:53:20] She looked up to the sky and she put her hands together.

[00:53:24] I could see her mouth these words.

[00:53:26] Thank you, Jesus.

[00:53:29] Now, I don't have a faith.

[00:53:31] My father was a minister.

[00:53:33] I don't have a faith.

[00:53:34] I understand faith very well as an observer because I've been in it all my life.

[00:53:38] In that moment, I felt slightly envious of her.

[00:53:42] And I thought, you've got something that is a hundred times more than I can.

[00:53:49] I want some of what you have got.

[00:53:52] And in that moment, I realized I've got more to give.

[00:53:55] I've got more to give.

[00:53:56] And in that moment, I realized we've all got more to give.

[00:54:00] It comes back to your point about what's a conductor for.

[00:54:03] My next rehearsal I did with the choir, they probably felt I was berating them because I said,

[00:54:10] lads, is my male voice part, lads, we've got more to give.

[00:54:14] Yes.

[00:54:15] We need that.

[00:54:16] Actually, at the end of that rehearsal, they were on fire because, you know, Donna threw her electricity.

[00:54:22] I gave my electricity.

[00:54:23] And those lads took some electricity and there was more to give.

[00:54:27] Yeah.

[00:54:28] So to your point there, Russell, if we have the mind for it, and there's something here about being prepared to open your mind to other possibilities,

[00:54:40] to be, you know, the audience, talking to audiences.

[00:54:43] I would love to be able to spend 30 minutes in a dark room with an audience trying to move them,

[00:54:50] trying to create an environment for transformation so that the music we're going to play truly,

[00:54:56] and I mean truly and spiritually, connects with them in a way that they leave that concert hall,

[00:55:02] they leave the venue changed.

[00:55:06] And do you know what?

[00:55:07] That's a magnificent place to start to draw a veil over this, these first two episodes.

[00:55:13] And what actually is interesting for me, because that's a really emotional story, actually.

[00:55:18] I really love that.

[00:55:19] And it all goes back, and it all goes back to where you started when you said,

[00:55:25] a music teacher said to you.

[00:55:27] And I remember a music teacher saying to me once, and that, how do you harness,

[00:55:33] and it's the crime of the way music education is being cut at the moment,

[00:55:37] and we'll come to that and show it, and we'll come back to another episode.

[00:55:39] But I think that transformational process, that the conductor is the leader, is an educator,

[00:55:46] we're sort of communicating, we're channeling, we're...

[00:55:49] It is quite interesting.

[00:55:51] It's very chastening for an old cynical creature like myself to listen to someone talk about conducting

[00:55:59] and go away thinking, blimey, I'm going to go back to this.

[00:56:02] And it always comes back to the point, I remember, you'll remember this conversation where we were talking about Bruckner.

[00:56:08] And you said, I was moaning about Bruckner and saying, oh, Bruckner is awful, it's rubbish, it's terrible.

[00:56:12] And you said, have you ever listened to it?

[00:56:14] I said, of course not.

[00:56:15] That's why I'm so opinionated.

[00:56:17] And you said, if you listen to the first minute of Bruckner 9, you'll discover whether you like Bruckner or something.

[00:56:22] And now, you know, addict.

[00:56:24] But look, Stephen, it's been brilliant to talk to you today.

[00:56:27] I have a list of questions.

[00:56:29] It is at least 17 things we haven't touched on today, which have been fascinating.

[00:56:34] Can you count down that list to number seven and tell me what it is?

[00:56:37] I could.

[00:56:38] I don't know what you think about that.

[00:56:40] I love it.

[00:56:41] You're always inspirational, Russell.

[00:56:43] And everybody should have more Russell Thackeray in their lives.

[00:56:47] But more Stephen Bell first.

[00:56:48] But look, Stephen, if people need to get in touch with you, I'd like to find out more about your work.

[00:56:52] I mean, where would they look to find or engage with you or to see more of what you're up to?

[00:56:58] They can go to Google, but they'll find other Stephen Bells that are out there.

[00:57:04] They could telephone me.

[00:57:07] 07749 111171.

[00:57:08] Send me a text.

[00:57:09] Get in touch.

[00:57:09] I don't mind.

[00:57:10] You don't have a website.

[00:57:12] I don't.

[00:57:13] Facebook.

[00:57:14] I don't have a personal website.

[00:57:17] Perhaps I should, but I don't.

[00:57:20] But yeah, Google Stephen Bell in Aundle.

[00:57:23] O-U-N-D-L-E is where I live.

[00:57:25] And they'll find me.

[00:57:27] Reach out.

[00:57:27] Say hello.

[00:57:29] I'm always interested in new ideas, having new conversations.

[00:57:32] Just like this one.

[00:57:33] I'm inspired to double down on some of the things I'm doing and try and do them better.

[00:57:37] How can I do this thing better?

[00:57:38] How can I reach more people?

[00:57:39] How can I move more minds?

[00:57:41] Sometimes we're put on this earth for certain things.

[00:57:44] And, you know, as life's gone by, I've realized that I've got more to give and do in the musical area.

[00:57:51] Music is not about being musical.

[00:57:53] It's about moving people spiritually.

[00:57:55] That's why we get excited about this.

[00:57:56] And we have to remember the first principles about what are we in it for?

[00:58:00] You know, why?

[00:58:01] What's my why?

[00:58:01] You know about that.

[00:58:03] And Andy's off again.

[00:58:04] And this is, we're on episode three.

[00:58:06] We're going to stop you this time.

[00:58:09] Hi, thanks for listening.

[00:58:10] Hopefully that was a useful and interesting episode.

[00:58:12] As I said earlier, you can support our work by leaving a review, which does drive enhanced exposure.

[00:58:19] Or you can donate on our site, which is at qedod.com.

[00:58:24] You can purchase our series of books all about unravelling resilience, leadership, management and anxiety at qedod.com forward slash extras,

[00:58:34] along with some other free resources available on the site.

[00:58:37] We've also got a Patreon page.

[00:58:40] And you, of course, can send us questions, ideas, thoughts, conversations and fresh subjects at info at qedod.com.

[00:58:52] Hopefully there's something there for you.

[00:58:54] Catch you next time around.